# Opt out organ donation and relatives' wishes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 2, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463 "2013-07-02T17:33:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/141 "2013-07-04T16:38:35Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > . > :eek: > _This is a thing?!_ In France, where opt-out was the default (I write “was” because I’m not sure it’s still the case), it wasn’t actually implemented. In practice, organs wouldn’t be harvested without the consent of the family, and apparently not even when it was known that the deceased person wanted to donate his organs (as opposed to not having opted out). I remember that at some point, it was proposed to switch to opt-in, so that the will of the deceased would be officially registered and that doctors could mention it to the family. It was hoped that this would _raise_ the number of donations. I don’t know if we currently are, legally speaking, on an opt-in or an opt-out system. There are donor cards, but I don’t know if they have any actual meaning, legal or practical. Regardless of the legal theory, in France, the family decides, and the advice given to potential donors is to mention it to and discuss it with their close relative. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/142 "2013-07-04T16:48:02Z")
Too late to edit the post : I found very easily the infos. Legally you’re still presumed to consent to organ donation if you didn’t explicitely oppose it. Even though there’s apparently no clearly identified way to record your opposition. On the other hand, there’s a clear way to record your agreement : getting and filling a donor card. Which doesn’t matter since it won’t be taken into account anyway, even if the doctors somehow know about it. As I wrote above, barring peculiar circumstances, what you wanted or not will be unknown or ignored in practice and your relatives will decide. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/143 "2013-07-04T16:48:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > …But you do admit that these fears are, at least in this day and age, completely irrational and largely senseless, right? Comparing the modern times to the days when racism was still not just popular but politically sensible, or even to the slaveholding days, is a bit on the ridiculous side. Considering that I have already cited upthread a case in this country _in the last decade_ in which a patient was deliberately killed for the purpose of harvesting their organs? I’d say not. > [@](#): > > Yes, and rightfully so, because those reasons are for the most part paranoid wackjobbery. Hell, when pressed, I was offered exactly one case where death was brought on quicker to harvest organs, and that was in the case of a patient suffering from a terminal illness who had gone into a coma and by all rights could have been declared legally dead right then and there. If it’s that easy to declare _a living person_ to be dead, then it seems like we’re already on the slippery slope to demanding that living people give up their organs for “the greater good”. > [@Mangetout](#): > > The Hippocratic oath (“first, do no harm”) Once you’ve decided that non-donors should be left to die for their “selfishness”, you’ve pretty much given up on that precept anyway. > [@Bozuit](#): > > To those who oppose the idea of opt out for reasons other than the idea that it’s wrong, in principle, for the default position to be potential donation: what would it take to make opt out a good thing? - A guarantee that no person shall be presumed to have opted in by default if it cannot be demonstrated that they have been provided with the opportunity to opt out. - A guarantee that no person shall be denied access to organ transplants due to inability to pay. - A guarantee that no person, under any circumstances, will be denied access to organ transplants on the basis of not being a donor. - A guarantee that no person who is a registered donor, under any circumstances, will be denied care, induced to die, or harvested for organs at any point prior to complete and total death. - Capital punishment (preferably by vivisection for the purpose of organ harvesting, without anesthesia) for any doctors and/or other medical personnel violating any of the above guarantees. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelEmouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/michaelemouse/32/101_2.png) [@MichaelEmouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelEmouse)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/144 "2013-07-04T16:56:00Z")
Smapti, Why should people who refuse to be organ donors be eligible to receive organs from others? Why should someone demand that others do for them what they are not willing to do for others? Should it be possible for individuals to say that they agree to be organ donors as long as the organ recipient has also agreed to be an organ donor? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/145 "2013-07-04T17:02:08Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Smapti, > > Why should people who refuse to be organ donors be eligible to receive organs from others? Why should someone demand that others do for them what they are not willing to do for others? > Should it be possible for individuals to say that they agree to be organ donors as long as the organ recipient has also agreed to be an organ donor? If convicted murderers can receive organ donations why shouldn’t people who don’t want to be organ donors because they’ve heard stories\* about paramedics allowing people to die when they found they were organ donors. \*. I don’t believe such stories but understand the fears of those that do and understand why there’s a huge racial disparity when it comes to organ donation. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/146 "2013-07-04T17:04:00Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Considering that I have already cited upthread a case in this country _in the last decade_ in which a patient was deliberately killed for the purpose of harvesting their organs? I’d say not. After reading through [these links](https://www.google.com/#gs_rn=19&gs_ri=psy-ab&gs_mss=dental%20mista&tok=wJOPk17-FGfyAlnOeUj5cQ&pq=dental%20malpractice&cp=21&gs_id=3g&xhr=t&q=dental+malpractice+stories&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=dental+malpractice+st&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=c4c94a61b5c98a3e&biw=1280&bih=895), may we presume that you are never going to the dentist again? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/147 "2013-07-04T17:04:56Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Why should people who refuse to be organ donors be eligible to receive organs from others? Why should someone demand that others do for them what they are not willing to do for others? “First, do no harm”. That was the argument given above as to why I shouldn’t worry that doctors would let me die so they could have my organs. If you’re going to insist on that sentiment in one instance, it’s hypocritical of you to then turn around and append to it “unless they’re not organ donors”. Secondly, organ donation is just that - a _donation_ - i.e., a gift given without expectation of payment or recompense. If we’re now making donor status mandatory for receipt of donor organs, then it’s no longer a donation, but a mandatory-in-all-but-name sale of one’s organs in exchange for medical treatment. As I said above, if this is the tack you want to take, you really need to stop calling it “organ donation” and start calling it “compulsory organ harvesting”, because that’s what it is. > [@](#): > > Should it be possible for individuals to say that they agree to be organ donors as long as the organ recipient has also agreed to be an organ donor? No, for the same reason that it’s not possible for someone to agree to be an organ donor, as long as the organ recipient isn’t black. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/148 "2013-07-04T17:36:08Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > “First, do no harm”. I’m not sure that applies in that situation (but I still don’t like the idea). > [@](#): > > Secondly, organ donation is just that - a _donation_ - i.e., a gift given without expectation of payment or recompense. This is kind of silly. Playing games with the dictionary doesn’t bolster your argument. > [@](#): > > As I said above, if this is the tack you want to take, you really need to stop calling it “organ donation” and start calling it “compulsory organ harvesting”, because that’s what it is. I think you forfeited the ability to tell people what they should call it when you dropped this gem: > [@Smapti](#): > > Many people would not consider “the civilized world” to be a place in which, by default, one’s body is seized by the state upon death and chopped up into bits to serve the public weal. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/149 "2013-07-04T17:39:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is kind of silly. Playing games with the dictionary doesn’t bolster your argument. How is it “playing games with the dictionary” to point out that a donation stops being a donation when it becomes mandatory? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/150 "2013-07-04T17:41:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How is it “playing games with the dictionary” to point out that a donation stops being a donation when it becomes mandatory? Because you’re the only one who thinks the precise definition of “donation” is important to this discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/151 "2013-07-04T17:45:47Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Something that is consistently forgotten in these arguments is that some people really do have a fear that if they’re in an accident the doctors might not fight as hard to save them if their organs are suitable for use in others. You can argue until you’re blue in the face that that just does not happen but certain groups have been oppressed often enough and hard enough that they simply don’t trust the authorities. Black people, for example, can point to the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment or J. Marion Sims teaching himself how to repair vaginal fistulas on black women he purchased for the purpose of experimentation where people like them were used for medical experimentation without their consent. People from such a background are not going to be very trusting about people taking from them for the “greater good”. In such a context, calling people reluctant to donate organs “lazy” or “not worthy of being called human” and so forth is not helping at all. Forcing such people to surrender their dead isn’t going to convince them this is a good idea. Regaining that sort of trust will take generations of not being exploited for the benefit of others. > > …But you do admit that these fears are, at least in this day and age, completely irrational and largely senseless, right? Comparing the modern times to the days when racism was still not just popular but politically sensible, or even to the slaveholding days, is a bit on the ridiculous side. Nope, I don’t think all of that was so long ago. The Tuskegee thing didn’t end until 1972. I refer you to [this _New York Times_ article](http://www.nytimes.com/1997/05/12/us/families-emerge-as-silent-victims-of-tuskegee-syphilis-experiment.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm) discussing the survivors of the men in the experiment, women infected by untreated husbands and children _born_ with syphillis who only contracted it because their fathers were untreated as part of some “study” they weren’t even aware they were part of. _These people are still alive_. This is NOT the past. The attitudes that led to such exploitation have not disappeared, even if they _might_ be less common than they once were. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Outside of the black community, the poor in this country are, as a practical matter, locked out of most health care. Even if you have Medicaid, many doctors won’t accept it and the care it provides is limited, and tens of millions of Americans have no insurance at all. If you don’t have insurance and/or suitcases full of money you will never, ever get a transplant in the US no matter how much you need it. So, **you’re basically demanding the poor contribute to a program they are systematically excluded from.** How, exactly, is that fair? > > “Fair” doesn’t really quite matter in this case, as the net gain to society is still overwhelmingly positive, as there is no actual cost to society. So, if the “net gain to society is still overwhelmingly positive” you wouldn’t be opposed to being obliged to give up a kidney while you’re still alive? If the “net gain to society is still overwhelmingly positive” slavery would be OK? > [@](#): > > Hellova jump from “doctors can and sometimes do favor some groups over others” to “doctors will kill you for your organs”… Doctors have been known to kill people for less savory reasons than saving other lives. Granted, criminal doctors aren’t particularly common but they do exist. > [@](#): > > And the catholic church burned witches a the stake, which is why today I am terrified of all Christians. The last person burned at the stake was a couple centuries ago. The last survivor of the Tuskee Experiment died in 2004 and the children of those men, some of whom were needlessly born with syphillis, are still very much alive. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Another thing – you can sign all the documents you want to be an organ donor, but if your relatives object your wishes will be overridden. The family has veto power after you’re dead. How about we change that first? If you sign an organ donor card you are an organ donor and if your relatives don’t like that they can go pound sand. > > :eek: > _This is a thing?!_ Yes, it’s a thing. Your family has veto power over your organ donation wishes as soon as you are dead. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/152 "2013-07-04T17:48:37Z")
> [@MichaelEmouse](#): > > Why should people who refuse to be organ donors be eligible to receive organs from others? Why should someone demand that others do for them what they are not willing to do for others? Why do we give blood to people who can’t prove they’re blood donors themselves? Please tell me you understand that a lot of people either shouldn’t donate organs, or can’t donate organs due to medical history. > [@](#): > > Should it be possible for individuals to say that they agree to be organ donors as long as the organ recipient has also agreed to be an organ donor? Nope, because that would be apportioning organs using non-medical criteria. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/153 "2013-07-04T17:48:38Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Your family has veto power over your organ donation wishes as soon as you are dead. Check out the link in post #146-it’s not that simple. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/154 "2013-07-04T17:49:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Because you’re the only one who thinks the precise definition of “donation” is important to this discussion. Provide me an example of a mandatory donation, then. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/155 "2013-07-04T17:53:25Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > > [@Broomstick](#): > > > > Your family has veto power over your organ donation wishes as soon as you are dead. > > Check out the link in post #146-it’s not that simple. Unless you can point to the individual article among the bajillion in that link that is relevant to organ donation rather than dental malpractice I’m not bothering to wade through a google search result. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/156 "2013-07-04T17:56:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Unless you can point to the individual article among the bajillion in that link that is relevant to organ donation rather than dental malpractice I’m not bothering to wade through a google search result. Oops! I meant the link in post #134, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/157 "2013-07-04T17:58:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Provide me an example of a mandatory donation, then. I repeat: “You’re the only one who thinks the precise definition of “donation” is important to this discussion.” That means I don’t think this is important. For that matter you’ve already called organ donation seizing one’s body and chopping it up into bits to serve the common weal and a poster who agreed with you called it “mutilating a corpse against the wishes of the family or former human being.” Like I said earlier, that kind of language is common in these debates from people who oppose opt-out systems even though logically all posthumous organ donation is ‘seizing a body and chopping it into bits’ and ‘mutilating a corpse.’ Since you resorted to that kind of pointless and loaded language, I no longer care what you think is the correct term. See how that works? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/158 "2013-07-04T18:09:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I repeat: "You’re the only one who thinks the precise definition of “donation” is important to this discussion. And I, for one, find it very telling that proponents of compulsory organ harvesting are perfectly willing to use loaded and inaccurate words like “donation” when they know full well that what they advocate isn’t a donation by any sense of the word, and will admit when pressed that they don’t care what the word means. It just goes to show that the only reason the term is used at all is for PR purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/159 "2013-07-04T18:12:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And I, for one, find it very telling that proponents of compulsory organ harvesting are perfectly willing to use loaded and inaccurate words like “donation” when they know full well that what they advocate isn’t a donation by any sense of the word, and will admit when pressed that they don’t care what the word means. It just goes to show that the only reason the term is used at all is for PR purposes. You throw out the term “compulsory organ harvesting” and dare to accuse others of using loaded and inaccurate words? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2013, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463/160 "2013-07-04T18:14:24Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You throw out the term “compulsory organ harvesting” and dare to accuse others of using loaded and inaccurate words? It has been proposed by several people upthread that organ donation should both be assumed by default, and that people who have opted out of being organ donors should be allowed to die rather than receive an organ transplant. I find the term “compulsory organ harvest” to be more factually descriptive of the proposed scheme than “organ donation”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/opt-out-organ-donation-and-relatives-wishes/662463.md?page=9)