# Optimist vs Pessimists **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 7, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602 "2009-03-07T00:11:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/1 "2009-03-07T00:11:18Z")
I just saw a study that concluded optimist live longer than pessimists. I can see it now: Pessimists: "Damn it, I knew it! " 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/2 "2009-03-07T00:20:04Z")
So… they’re both right! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Beginning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@New\_Beginning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Beginning)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/3 "2009-03-07T00:36:53Z")
> [@David\_B](#): > > So… they’re both right! Too funny. OP: Do you have a link? ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/4 "2009-03-07T00:51:10Z")
“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds; and the pessimist fears this is true.” James Branch Cabell, _The Silver Stallion_ ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/5 "2009-03-07T01:13:46Z")
I point you to [this recent thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508628&highlight=Learned) I started. Excerpt: > [@](#): > > While _Learned Optimism_ is both intended to be, and is quite useful as, a self-help book, it is one that is steeped in academic research. Perhaps one of the most impressive things is that Seligman has been able to replicate these findings in study after study and extrapolate them to scenario after scenario. He found that people with an optimistic explanatory style are more likely to succeed professionally, be better students, play better sports, be physically healthier, and are even more likely to be elected president. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/6 "2009-03-07T02:18:51Z")
I dont offhand know how to do the linky thing, but it was a lead story on Yahoo news tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Rysto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ecccb3/32.png) [@Rysto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysto)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/7 "2009-03-07T02:38:20Z")
> [@](#): > > While Learned Optimism is both intended to be, and is quite useful as, a self-help book, it is one that is steeped in academic research. Perhaps one of the most impressive things is that Seligman has been able to replicate these findings in study after study and extrapolate them to scenario after scenario. He found that people with an optimistic explanatory style are more likely to succeed professionally, be better students, play better sports, be physically healthier, and are even more likely to be elected president. Uh, what way does the causation flow, here? It seems to me that successful people are more likely to be optimistic. ---
**Author:** ![gardentraveler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gardentraveler/32/3576_2.png) [@gardentraveler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gardentraveler)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/8 "2009-03-07T03:00:15Z")
[Here’s a link from Scientific American that tells you why it’s in the news.](http://www.sciam.com/blog/60-second-science/post.cfm?id=do-optimists-live-longer-2009-03-06) It has to do with findings of an 15-year study that were released this week at a conference in Chicago. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/9 "2009-03-07T04:51:44Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Uh, what way does the causation flow, here? It seems to me that successful people are more likely to be optimistic. There’s a problem with this kind of study. The sorts of problems that shorten your lifespan also tend to result in a pessimistic ( and accurate ) outlook. Well off, healthy, happy people are going to be more optimistic because their life has been going well. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/10 "2009-03-07T12:38:04Z")
The problem with “studies” like this is, even if they’re valid (which is dubious), there’s not much anybody can do to take advantage of them. To use a different (and completely made up) example, SUPPOSE a similar study showed that devout Christians were much happier and lived much longer than atheists. Well, what then? We all want to live longer, happier lives, but what are we supposed to do? Is an atheist supposed to start going to church, to gain the supposed benefits of a belief he doesn’t share? It’s about as easy for a person of a generally pessimistic bent to decide to become an optimist as it would be for Richard Dawkins to will himself to be a Christian. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Woodhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@Miss\_Woodhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Woodhouse)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/11 "2009-03-07T16:20:02Z")
But you can learn to be an optimist with careful work. I’ve spent the last 15 years working on it and I’ve managed to reach “pragmatic optimism” levels with only moderate backsliding. See? it can be done. You could also be like my mother and tell everyone you are an optimist and then immediately start discussing how to deal with that awful disease your spouse may or may not get because it runs in the family, but you never know and you ought to be prepared for reality. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/12 "2009-03-07T17:03:19Z")
I like “Murphy’s statement on the power of negative thinking” myself; “It is impossible for an optimist to be pleasantly surprised” ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/13 "2009-03-07T17:04:55Z")
Optimists may live longer, but only optimists think that’s a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/14 "2009-03-07T20:01:14Z")
> [@Rysto](#): > > Uh, what way does the causation flow, here? It seems to me that successful people are more likely to be optimistic. The thread I linked to discusses Seligman’s efforts to establish causation through longitudinal studies. One he discusses at length is the Princeton-Penn Longitudinal Study, which at the time of his book’s publication had been running about 10 years and was expected to run through the childrens’ graduation from high school. His findings, in essence, were that life events, particularly divorce or family conflict, cause kids to develop a pessimistic explanatory style and thus to become depressed. However, _optimistic explanatory style can be taught and depression avoided._ Why some people never do become pessimists despite incredible hardship seemed somewhat a mystery to him, but one he was interested in figuring out. \*\* astorian\*\*, I see your point about religion, but attribution theory is a different ballgame. The fundamental purpose of the book _Learned Optimism_ was to teach people that explanatory style can be changed through simple cognitive techniques. It’s a well-established fact that [link to Google book] [changing your thinking patterns can affect your mood](http://books.google.com/books?id=_cr_5BpEyGkC&dq=evidence+based+treatment+for+anxiety&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=vnTIBDXIy6&sig=63fgKU873akgX1w9HNPzh0-r7nA&hl=en&ei=k86ySbyPIc-jtgf2m5m8Bw&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result#PPP1,M1), including your susceptibility to depression and anxiety (I would quote this book, _Anxiety Disorders in Adults: An evidence-based approach to psychological treatment_ in a heartbeat, but there’s no paste function for this book viewer… the introduction basically says, ‘‘What follows is a compendium of treatments for anxiety that have established empirical support. Most of them are cognitive-behavioral therapies.’’) [Here’s a link to the CV](http://www.ppc.sas.upenn.edu/vitae.htm) where you can learn all about Seligman’s research. He’s not considered a straight cognitive therapist because he’s been a part of his own thing, positive psychology, but his research is founded on the findings of Beck and Ellis, the co-founders of cognitive therapy. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Beginning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@New\_Beginning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Beginning)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/15 "2009-03-07T22:13:57Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > The problem with “studies” like this is, even if they’re valid (which is dubious), there’s not much anybody can do to take advantage of them. > > To use a different (and completely made up) example, SUPPOSE a similar study showed that devout Christians were much happier and lived much longer than atheists. > > Well, what then? We all want to live longer, happier lives, but what are we supposed to do? Is an atheist supposed to start going to church, to gain the supposed benefits of a belief he doesn’t share? > > It’s about as easy for a person of a generally pessimistic bent to decide to become an optimist as it would be for Richard Dawkins to will himself to be a Christian. This isn’t a particularly good analogy… The reason why Richard Dawkins won’t convert to Christianity, even after the results of your fake study, is because he doesn’t want to brainwash himself into believing nonsense. Optimism, however, is typically more realistic than pessimism. (Or at least, neither are preferentially ‘correct’ and if one is more productive than the other, then we should pick that one.) My fiancee is a pretty hardcore pessimist and I plan to convert her. I’ll get back to you in 10 years to let you know how it went. ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/16 "2009-03-07T23:40:41Z")
> [@New\_Beginning](#): > > \My fiancee is a pretty hardcore pessimist and I plan to convert her. I’ll get back to you in 10 years to let you know how it went. It won’t work… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/17 "2009-03-08T00:00:48Z")
> [@New\_Beginning](#): > > Optimism, however, is typically more realistic than pessimism. [It’s a little more complicated than that.](http://www.apa.org/monitor/apr05/realism.html) There is evidence to indicate that depressed people more accurately assess how much control they have over their situations. Optimists tend to overestimate the amount of control and influence they have over what happens around them. Thus, depressed people, in some ways, show better judgment than optimists. This has been dubbed ‘‘depressive realism.’’ Nobody really knows why it happens, though. > [@](#): > > Psychologists have thought for decades that depressed people tend to distort the facts and view their lives more negatively than do nondepressed people. Yet, psychological studies have consistently revealed a peculiar exception to that pattern: Depressed people, studies indicated, judge their control of events more accurately than do nondepressed people in a phenomenon that came to be known as “depressive realism.” > > Now two new studies published in February’s Journal of Experimental Psychology: General (Vol. 134, No. 1) are starting to clear up the mystery. By refining an aspect of an experimental task that involved control over a light bulb, researchers uncovered a new twist–that nondepressed people may overestimate their control because they take more aspects of a situation into account in judging their control. The findings may help clinicians to refine therapies for depression. For the record, I’d much rather be a deluded optimist. I’m working on it. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/18 "2009-03-08T03:44:53Z")
> [@olivesmarch4th](#): > > There is evidence to indicate that depressed people more accurately assess how much control they have over their situations. Optimists tend to overestimate the amount of control and influence they have over what happens around them. Thus, depressed people, in some ways, show better judgment than optimists. This has been dubbed ‘‘depressive realism.’’ Nobody really knows why it happens, though. So, life can be nasty and brutal and dangerous and people who may or may not be smarter than you or have your best interest at heart or give a rats behind about you may control your life. Seems pretty damn obvious to me as to why that would be depressing. ---
**Author:** ![GameHat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ed655f/32.png) [@GameHat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GameHat)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/19 "2009-03-08T03:53:41Z")
Pessimists are rarely dissapointed. I speak from experience. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f08c70/32.png) [@Uncle\_Brother\_Walker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Brother_Walker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2009, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602/20 "2009-03-08T05:07:36Z")
Optimists say “the glass is half full.” Pessismists say “the glass is half empty.” Realists say “somebody’s going to have to wash that glass.” 🙂 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimist-vs-pessimists/488602.md?page=2)