# Optimistic Voices (Wizard of Oz song) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [November 6, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905 "2021-11-06T19:27:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/1 "2021-11-06T19:27:17Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/wqGUwL0P6no/maxresdefault.jpg "Optimistic Voices") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqGUwL0P6no) The choir sounds like it’s shining light or radiating something magical. Does the choral arrangement draw on some well-known characteristic of opera? Was it something popular before WWII? I always thought I noticed the influence of that sound in bits and pieces of popular music (ELO, for example), but it might just be my imagination. ---
**Author:** ![MindsEye\_Watering](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mindseye_watering/32/3619_2.png) [@MindsEye\_Watering](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MindsEye_Watering)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/2 "2021-11-06T19:42:32Z")
What I hear is the wide vibrato that was common back in that time. ---
**Author:** ![RivkahChaya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rivkahchaya/32/8919_2.png) [@RivkahChaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RivkahChaya)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/3 "2021-11-06T19:49:06Z")
I think MEW is onto something. But also, there is harmony of several different types of sopranos, along with a lack of lower voices. The soprano voice used to dominate, but today, a mix of different voices is more popular, and there’s even lots of room for lower female voices, which used to be out of luck a century ago. I think that the quality of music recording before about 1950 is part of it, though, as well. The _Wizard of Oz_ has had the soundtrack restored and remastered more than anything, because it’s probably the most popular musical of the 30s & 40s. Still, nothing can quite overcome this particular sound quality films had then. ---
**Author:** ![Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/prof.pepperwinkle/32/13627_2.png) [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Prof.Pepperwinkle)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2021, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/4 "2021-11-06T21:29:32Z")
From the Oz Wiki, FWIW: > The Debutantes, a female vocal trio, provided voices for the Lullabye League and contributed to the song “Optimistic Voices.” > > The Rhythmettes also contributed to “Optimistic Voices.” ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/5 "2021-11-07T11:02:29Z")
Okay, wide vibrato, soprano voices, recording technology, The Debutantes and The Rhythmettes. Thanks for the input. I mentioned ELO; here’s another one that sounds similar to me: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/gPoiv0sZ4s4/hqdefault.jpg "M - Pop Muzik (Official Video)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPoiv0sZ4s4) I had to laugh yesterday when I found myself wondering if women can have falsetto voices; as if it were something I should have asked my father about. Interestingly, it turns out that, until [research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsetto#Female_falsetto) in the 1950s proved otherwise, it was thought that only men could have falsetto voices. Although the link is just a Wikipedia entry, I’m willing to believe it without checking other sources, but I admit I’m not sure if I’ve ever heard a female falsetto voice, if it’s something I’d be able to detect and even if it has anything to do with Optimistic Voices. So, do you think they’re singing with falsetto voices? ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/6 "2021-11-07T11:17:49Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > The choir sounds like it’s shining light or radiating something magical. It’s a three-part harmony. That’s what gives it that quality, I think. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/7 "2021-11-07T11:29:21Z")
A couple of examples of three-part harmony: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/RWjvjSwWdKc/hqdefault.jpg "Sentimental Journey") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWjvjSwWdKc) … and the [details](http://www.howtosingsmarter.com/three-part-harmony/) of how they do that.   [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/WiayZdPESno/hqdefault.jpg?sqp=-oaymwEmCOADEOgC8quKqQMa8AEB-AH-BIAC4AOKAgwIABABGF8gXyhfMA8=&rs=AOn4CLBAf3HGCQ9g14xE0kOd7giRG8FvpA "The Andrews Sisters - Rum And Coca-Cola 1944") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiayZdPESno) ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/8 "2021-11-07T11:56:41Z")
Hey, thanks for that. Coincidentally, earlier today, I was listening to The Andrews Sisters and their predecessor The Boswell Sisters and I think it’s not quite the same, at least in my mind (missing the “glowing” quality), but at this point I’m not really sure. You see, I’ve studied instrumental music for a long time and have a working understanding of music theory, analytical skills, etc., but I’ve never been very good at discerning the voices in a choral arrangement. So that link of yours looks like it’ll do me good. I’ll have a closer listen/look later today. By the way, I like this a lot. Couldn’t help thinking about some of the oddballs that hang out at a place I know of: 😁 [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynwtYRDP124) ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2021, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/9 "2021-11-07T12:16:57Z")
> [@Prof.Pepperwinkle](#): > > From the Oz Wiki, FWIW: > > > The Debutantes, a female vocal trio, provided voices for the Lullabye League and contributed to the song “Optimistic Voices.” > > > > The Rhythmettes also contributed to “Optimistic Voices.” Yeah, it seemed pretty clear on listening (to me at least) that they have a trio in front, with a choir backing them. I only hear one point where they all sing together, when they all sing “open, open” near the end. And I’m not entirely sure about the first “open.” As for the effect of the actual choir, I agree that the soprano dominant mix contributes a lot to the sound. When we think of a heavenly choir, we tend to think of angels, which popular culture portrays as mostly female. The use of constant vibrato is associate with a more formal and older sound, which also fits the angelic idea. But I’d also add the reverb. It sounds bigger, like it fills the skies. But it’s still in the background compared to the trio who sound closer (by being as loud as the whole choir), which adds some feeling of distance. And there’s the way they sound like an instrument than vocals, singing vowels, sliding up and down to the notes, and varying the vowels. At certain points, I actually thought they were strings for a bit. They blend very well with the orchestra. That way, despite being in the background most of the time, they still sound huge, like heavenly hosts. What I found most interesting was the point of contrast. There’s a point in the middle where they sing in unison, with a perfectly matched but overly shaky vibrato. It adds this spooky sound to contrast with the heavenly sound the OP mentions. And, checking a clip from the actual film, it seems it is what you’d think: it shows the Wicked Witch on screen. That contrast also contributes to our perception, I suspect. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/tXElbAtFJw4/hqdefault.jpg "Poppies and Optimistic Voices-The WIzard of Oz, Musical Score Only") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXElbAtFJw4&t=232) (video cued up at the spookier part. Go back about 30 seconds to hear the beginning part. It’s as the party leaves the poppy field towards the Emerald City). ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/10 "2021-11-08T10:29:55Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > …with a choir backing them Yeah, I’m not asking about the oohs and aahs, just the voices that are singing the lyrics. > [@BigT](#): > > But I’d also add the reverb Do you actually hear reverb there or are you saying that it would add a certain quality? This video does a pretty good job, IMO, of showing a female falsetto voice. She shows two kinds, one piercing (she calls it “insisting”) and one breathy. I’m thinking at least some of the singers in Optimistic Voices are using that breathy falsetto voice. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/JhjuuQVYnPA/maxresdefault.jpg "The Difference Between Head Voice and Falsetto clarified") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhjuuQVYnPA&t=271) ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2021, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/11 "2021-11-08T22:42:09Z")
> [@alovem](#): > > Interestingly, it turns out that, until [research](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsetto#Female_falsetto) in the 1950s proved otherwise, it was thought that only men could have falsetto voices. Although the link is just a Wikipedia entry, I’m willing to believe it without checking other sources, According to research by the noted musicologist [Senor Baravelli](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2gmUxuTD74), it was known that women can sing falsetto as early as 1932. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/12 "2021-11-09T10:31:40Z")
Baravelli was Italian. From the link I posted upthread: > Celebrated opera singer and voice teacher Richard Miller pointed out in his 1997 publication National Schools of Singing: English, French, German, and Italian that while the German school of voice teachers had largely embraced the idea of a female falsetto into pedagogical practice, there is division within the French and English schools and a **complete rejection of the idea of female falsetto in the Italian school of singing.** So, to paraphrase Sheldon Cooper, _joke’s on you_. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/13 "2021-11-09T11:32:05Z")
When I was talking about reverb, I was referring to the backing choir. They have more of it than the front singers. They sound more like they’re actually on a stage singing, while the front singers sound like they’re singing directly into a microphone. To my ear, it is the female trio blending in with the choir and orchestra that creates that heavenly, etheric sound. If you are instead referring to just the sound of the trio (which is similar to the songs “[Mr. Sandman](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX45pYvxDiA)” or “[Lollipop](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rYoRaxgOE0),” then we’re talking about completely different sounds. The trio is not “soprano dominant,” but actually consists **entirely** of women. You have one woman singing a low harmony (alto), a lead singing the main melody (lead), and one singing a high harmony (soprano) . It’s definitely possible that lighter, breathier sound of the soprano is part of what you hear as ethereal, as “airy” sounds tend to get associated with “heavenly choirs” and such. Now, is that “female falsetto”? That’s a huge can of worms. Personally, I would say “probably.” The term “female falsetto” is not generally used for “head voice.” It is used for a breathy production caused by a certain way of producing sound. It is the M2 register, but **used by itself**. What is usually called “head voice” is actually a blend or mix between the M1 and M2 registers. (The precise blend is different in the traditionally male voice and the traditionally female voice, but both use some blend of the registers throughout most of their head voice range.) That said, you can create a breathy sound in a different way. Instead of using the M2 register, you can just make it breathy by not pulling the vocal cords so close together, same as we do to make breathy sounds when we speak (in our M1 register). And I can’t hear the soprano’s voice well enough to be sure she’s not doing that. However, I thinks she’s most likely singing in falsetto. Long story short, if the light high voice is contributing to the feeling you describe in the OP, then I do think female falsetto is likely the cause of that. However, it may also be other aspects of the sound from the other two singers. Or, based on my ear, it has more to do with the backing choir. ---
**Author:** ![alovem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@alovem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alovem)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2021, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/optimistic-voices-wizard-of-oz-song/953905/14 "2021-11-09T12:01:29Z")
Wow, that was great. I wasn’t sure if you were pulling my leg or maybe just imagining a lot of that, but it sounds like you know what you’re talking about. So thanks for taking the time to make that clear and for those links. The Chordette’s version of Mr. Sandman is delightful. I must have heard that before, although there’ve been many versions over the years (Chet Atkins’ is the one that drew my attention in my adult years). Looks like I’ve got a lot to read, listen to and consider. Way cool and thanks again!