# ..., or no? Weird sentence structure. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 30, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188 "2019-11-30T03:12:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Tempe\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tempe_jeff/32/7328_2.png) [@Tempe\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tempe_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/1 "2019-11-30T03:12:51Z")
Here’s a phrase I’ve been hearing a lot of recently. Can you do (whatever thing), or no? Or, alternatively can I do (whatever thing) or no? It’s not only clumsy phrasing but, additional work for the speaker. Why do it? In this context, “or no” is excessive wording for no reason and could be omitted. What say you? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/2 "2019-11-30T03:40:57Z")
It sounds like a “softener,” a way to make a request less demanding or abrupt. Listen to John McWhorter’s latest Lexicon Valley podcast (on Slate — it’s free) for a delightful half-hour exposition of such words, phrases, and grammatical structures in English, past and present. ---
**Author:** ![Tempe\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tempe_jeff/32/7328_2.png) [@Tempe\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tempe_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/3 "2019-11-30T04:08:24Z")
It’s just a bit jarring when my 10 year old ask to buy something at the store using this phrasing. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/4 "2019-11-30T04:09:37Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > Why do it? In this context, “or no” is excessive wording for no reason and could be omitted. What say you? I don’t know why you would think that all language must be strictly propositional, and otherwise has no other purpose. That is a very limited recognition of the full complexity of language. I’m sure you yourself use tag questions (without even realizing it), in a similar way as this particular structure, and for similar functional reasons. You might be interested in reading about functional linguistics. If you do so, you’ll see that many aspects of language you might now characterize as “excessive wording” and that “can be omitted” are actually serving very important purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Tempe\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tempe_jeff/32/7328_2.png) [@Tempe\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tempe_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/5 "2019-11-30T04:29:11Z")
Contextually, it is counter-productive. It makes it MUCH easier to say no when that choice is high-lighted. ---
**Author:** ![Tempe\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tempe_jeff/32/7328_2.png) [@Tempe\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tempe_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/6 "2019-11-30T04:33:17Z")
Let’s look at two examples. “Can I have some cookies for dessert?” ; or, "Can I have some cookies for dessert, or no? " . Did this phrasing come from a movie, or a video or something else? Asking someone to say no to a request isn’t even sensible. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/7 "2019-11-30T04:38:26Z")
> [@Tempe\_Jeff](#): > > Let’s look at two examples. “Can I have some cookies for dessert?” ; or, "Can I have some cookies for dessert, or no? " … Asking someone to say no to a request isn’t even sensible. IMHO it’s a self-defeating move, inviting a response of NO. A bad way to ask for sex, too. ---
**Author:** ![Esprise\_Me](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/esprise_me/32/2947_2.png) [@Esprise\_Me](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esprise_Me)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/8 "2019-11-30T05:26:07Z")
That’s exactly the point of a softener–to make it clear to the listener that a “no” will be accepted and respected. And, ye gods, of course asking for sex is one of those situations. Even if that particular construction grates on your ears, surely you didn’t mean to suggest that one should only ask for sex in a way that makes it harder for the other person to say no? ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/9 "2019-11-30T05:46:44Z")
I might say “or not” rather than “or no”, but I"m more familiar with it, not as a softener but as an “accentuator”, implying something along the lines of “Make your mind up/Do it now, or else…” ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/10 "2019-11-30T10:22:08Z")
“Or not” sounds more grammatical to me than “Or no.” But I have a reaction opposite to some Dopers: > [@JKellyMap](#): > > It sounds like a “softener,” a way to make a request less demanding or abrupt. For me, it’s the opposite: a “hardener” if you will, not a “softener.” It makes the request more abrupt, almost like an ultimatum. > [@PatrickLondon](#): > > I might say “or not” rather than “or no”, but I"m more familiar with it, not as a softener but as an “accentuator”, implying something along the lines of “Make your mind up/Do it now, or else…” Someone agrees with me? :rolleyes: I’m popping the champagne! ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/11 "2019-11-30T11:52:46Z")
True, I could see it might be intended and/or received as a “hardener”…forcing someone to make a binary choice, rather than the range of responses we usually can make: “Could you help me with this?” “I’d love to, but I’m busy just now…so sorry…” Vs. “Can you help me with this, or no?” “Uh, no, I can’t.” I’ll email Dr. McWhorter now — maybe he’ll address it in a future episode. ---
**Author:** ![Die\_Capacitrix](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/die_capacitrix/32/9_2.png) [@Die\_Capacitrix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Die_Capacitrix)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/12 "2019-11-30T12:39:06Z")
I first heard this in the late 1980s / early 1990s from a fellow university student who was from New Jersey. I heard it from other New Jersians, but not many. I have the feeling I might have heard in on Seinfield a time or too, but a quick search doesn’t turn up anything. My husband, who’s from PA doesn’t like it. I rarely use it, but sometimes it seems to fit the situation. I am not from NJ. ---
**Author:** ![PlaceboTarget](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/placebotarget/32/1073_2.png) [@PlaceboTarget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PlaceboTarget)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/13 "2019-11-30T13:22:18Z")
To me ‘or not’ sounds English. ‘Or no’ must be a phrase of Spanish or Italian origin (that Romanians would also use/produce). ---
**Author:** ![Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mean_mr.mustard/32/3865_2.png) [@Mean\_Mr.Mustard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mean_Mr.Mustard)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/14 "2019-11-30T13:29:01Z")
Well, I prefer it to “or what”. Within my family we often phrase it like this: “You’re coming over tomorrow, no?” ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/15 "2019-11-30T14:06:51Z")
Expecting english grammar or sentence structure to follow logical rules is a quick way to cognitive dissonance. Hence it’s a practice that up with which I shall not put. ---
**Author:** ![Personal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Personal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Personal)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/16 "2019-11-30T17:43:52Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > I first heard this in the late 1980s / early 1990s from a fellow university student who was from New Jersey. I heard it from other New Jersians, but not many. I have the feeling I might have heard in on Seinfield a time or too, but a quick search doesn’t turn up anything. > > My husband, who’s from PA doesn’t like it. I rarely use it, but sometimes it seems to fit the situation. I am not from NJ. I first heard it in the late 90s from someone who was from Cleveland. ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/17 "2019-11-30T18:20:59Z")
Well, Shakespeare used it! In The Tempest: Ferdinand, on first seeing Miranda: “My prime request, Which I do last pronounce, is, O you wonder! If you be maid, or no.” Miranda: “No wonder, sir, But certainly a maid.” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or-no-weird-sentence-structure/844188/18 "2019-11-30T18:33:08Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > “Or not” sounds more grammatical to me than “Or no.” But I have a reaction opposite to some Dopers: > For me, it’s the opposite: a “hardener” if you will, not a “softener.” It makes the request more abrupt, almost like an ultimatum. > > Someone agrees with me? :rolleyes: I’m popping the champagne! “Or no” and “or not” are different to me. The former I hear as a softener . The latter as a “make up your mind.” The former is also a more recent and more colloquial construction to me.