# !? or ?! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [August 13, 2009, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273 "2009-08-13T12:21:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/21 "2009-08-14T19:05:48Z")
Gotta go with: **?!?** ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/22 "2009-08-14T19:24:39Z")
I’m just gonna roll my face across the keyboard a few times mhnyvcx cxdbnumiiii ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/23 "2009-08-14T20:32:22Z")
Say that about my sister again and we’re gonna have serious issues, pal. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/24 "2009-08-14T21:15:54Z")
In which case, -j0u hr4r54j h0- your mother, too. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/25 "2009-08-15T07:45:34Z")
Yer goin’ _down_, mofo. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/26 "2009-08-15T15:31:38Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Man, am I glad I overdosed on Schoolhouse Rock a couple of weeks ago. The comma following “For fuck’s sake” replaces the exclamation point, diminishing the emotion of the outburst somewhat. It does not displace the exclamation point to the end of the whole sentence. For example, compare: > > _Hey! What are you doing? > Hey, what are you doing?_ > > According to your logic, the comma should restructure the punctuation as follows: > > _Hey, what are you doing!_ > > which, IMO, does not correctly convey the intent or purpose of the exclamation. > > Therefore, since the exclamation point of “For fuck’s sake” has not moved, the interrogative nature of “Were you born in a barn” necessitates the use of the question mark, whereas the exclamation point provides merely an emphatic function and should follow, not precede. Whatever. In practice, if I have occasion to write a sentence like that, I’m not going to sweat the order of the punctuation. If anyone ever calls me on it, I’ll respond with a hearty “Meh!” ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/27 "2009-08-15T19:54:21Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Man, am I glad I overdosed on Schoolhouse Rock a couple of weeks ago. The comma following “For fuck’s sake” replaces the exclamation point, diminishing the emotion of the outburst somewhat. It does not displace the exclamation point to the end of the whole sentence. For example, compare: > > _Hey! What are you doing? > Hey, what are you doing?_ > > According to your logic, the comma should restructure the punctuation as follows: > > _Hey, what are you doing!_ > > which, IMO, does not correctly convey the intent or purpose of the exclamation. > > Therefore, since the exclamation point of “For fuck’s sake” has not moved, the interrogative nature of “Were you born in a barn” necessitates the use of the question mark, whereas the exclamation point provides merely an emphatic function and should follow, not precede. In the example given (“For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn”) the phrase “were you born in a barn” has hardly any interrogative intent. It’s rhetorical, and a continuation of the shock expressed in “for fuck’s sake.” Slightly weaker, but a continuation. So, I favor the bang, followed by the QM… which is needed because the sentence is interrogative in form, if not intent. In formal writing it would get the QM, but when effective communication is all that matters I vote EMQM. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/28 "2009-08-16T01:55:15Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > In the example given (“For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn”) the phrase “were you born in a barn” has hardly any interrogative intent. It’s rhetorical, and a continuation of the shock expressed in “for fuck’s sake.” Slightly weaker, but a continuation. > > So, I favor the bang, followed by the QM… which is needed because the sentence is interrogative in form, if not intent. > > In formal writing it would get the QM, but when effective communication is all that matters I vote EMQM. Agree. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/29 "2009-08-16T07:47:28Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > In the example given (“For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn”) the phrase “were you born in a barn” has hardly any interrogative intent. It’s rhetorical, and a continuation of the shock expressed in “for fuck’s sake.” Slightly weaker, but a continuation. Nah, meng, you got it backwards, although you do have one thing right - “Were you born in a barn” is rhetorical. But it’s _still an interrogative_ - and therefore requires the use of a QM. “For fuck’s sake” is the intensifier here, indicating a heightened level of exasperation or frustration. The exclamation point is therefore _not_ part of the main rhetorical interrogative. You could look at it as a two-step series of nested functions, if you like. First we have the two basic elements: the rhetorical interrogative with its question mark (RI?) and the intensifier with its exclamation point (IN!). In the phrase we’re looking at, and in general, RI? serves the main function and IN! serves a supporting function. RI, being the main function, therefore has its punctuation marked first (like the primacy of a mathematical operation within parentheses). Therefore we get the structure **IN(RI?)!** with the question mark coming first and the exclamation point second. This should hold true regardless of the actual order of elements: _For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn?! Were you born in a barn, for fuck’s sake?!_ ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/30 "2009-08-16T13:25:15Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Nah, meng, you got it backwards, although you do have one thing right - “Were you born in a barn” is rhetorical. But it’s _still an interrogative_ - and therefore requires the use of a QM. > > “For fuck’s sake” is the intensifier here, indicating a heightened level of exasperation or frustration. The exclamation point is therefore _not_ part of the main rhetorical interrogative. > (…) > In the phrase we’re looking at, and in general, RI? serves the main function and IN! serves a supporting function. RI, being the main function, therefore has its punctuation marked first (…) > > This should hold true regardless of the actual order of elements: > > _For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn?! > Were you born in a barn, for fuck’s sake?!_ Mr. **Olentzero** , I understand your desire to apply the rules of traditional “monopunctuation” to this issue, but we can’t be enslaved by the past. Since the rules for compound punctuation are not formalized, each author can decide what combination of symbols is most effective. To me the two following sentences do not convey the same meaning: _“For fuck’s sake, were you raised in a barn!?”_ and… _“For fuck’s sake, were you raised in a barn?!”_ If I was to write the second one (with ?!) the reader should understand that the speaker is trying to confuse the other person with an intimidating “semi-rhetorical” question. A “semi-rhetorical” question such as… “Have you got a turd in your pocket?” “I know you are, but what am I?” “Are you still being an asshole?” When someone receives a semi-rhetorical question, their mind will struggle for a moment to answer it in some quasi-rational manner… unless they’ve built up immunity and simply answer, “So’s your mother.” Putting the exclaimation point second (!?), does NOT imply a semi-rhetorical question. If someone says, “For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn!?” the question is ENTIRELY rhetorical. The intention may be shock or intimidation, but there is no attempt to confuse. That’s how I read the difference. Others may interpret differently. Punctuating the sample sentence with ?! lends it a different meaning than !?, therefore neither compound punctuation mark is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/31 "2009-08-16T13:35:30Z")
Typographical error in my last post. Correction in blue: Putting the exclaimation point **first** (!?), does NOT imply a semi-rhetorical question. If someone says, “For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn!?” the question is ENTIRELY rhetorical. The intention may be shock or intimidation, but there is no attempt to confuse. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/32 "2009-08-16T14:32:23Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Since the rules for compound punctuation are not formalized, each author can decide what combination of symbols is most effective. Huh. What do you know, that seems to be the case. OK, I yield the point insofar as I’ll stop thinking “That’s wrong” whenever I see it. ---
**Author:** ![sjc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@sjc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sjc)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2009, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/33 "2009-08-16T17:28:37Z")
> [@Baal\_Houtham](#): > > Mr. **Olentzero** , I understand your desire to apply the rules of traditional “monopunctuation” to this issue, but we can’t be enslaved by the past. > > Since the rules for compound punctuation are not formalized, each author can decide what combination of symbols is most effective. > > To me the two following sentences do not convey the same meaning: > > _“For fuck’s sake, were you raised in a barn!?”_ > > _“For fuck’s sake, were you raised in a barn?!”_ > > If I was to write the second one (with ?!) the reader should understand that the speaker is trying to confuse the other person with an intimidating “semi-rhetorical” question. > A “semi-rhetorical” question such as… > “Have you got a turd in your pocket?” > “I know you are, but what am I?” > “Are you still being an asshole?” > > When someone receives a semi-rhetorical question, their mind will struggle for a moment to answer it in some quasi-rational manner… unless they’ve built up immunity and simply answer, “So’s your mother.” > > Putting the exclaimation point second (!?), does NOT imply a semi-rhetorical question. If someone says, “For fuck’s sake, were you born in a barn!?” the question is ENTIRELY rhetorical. The intention may be shock or intimidation, but there is no attempt to confuse. > > That’s how I read the difference. Others may interpret differently. Punctuating the sample sentence with ?! lends it a different meaning than !?, therefore neither compound punctuation mark is incorrect. I agree with this post. I use both orders in my informal writing depending on the message I meant to convey. You can be more precise in your meaning by not sticking slavishly to one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![LunarPlexus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@LunarPlexus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LunarPlexus)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/34 "2009-08-17T14:11:39Z")
! before ?, except after c. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/35 "2009-08-17T17:01:08Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > Yer goin’ _down_, mofo. You wouldn’t hit a woman with glasses, would you? I hope not, 'cause that’ll give me a chance to get a sucker-punch in. 😃 > [@cochrane](#): > > If anyone ever calls me on it, I’ll respond with a hearty “Meh!” The “meh” cannot be hearty if optimal slackitude is to be achieved! > [@Olentzero](#): > > **IN(RI?)!** “Were You Raised Catholic” test time! Who else read this as **Jesus of Nazareth (King of the Jews?)**! ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/36 "2009-08-17T17:09:55Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You wouldn’t hit a woman with glasses, would you?I hope not, 'cause that’ll give me a chance to get a sucker-punch in. 😃 I was gonna say ‘no’ until you came up with the sucker-punch line. (Didn’t realize you was a woman, neither.) > [@](#): > > _“Were You Raised Catholic” test time! Who else read this as **Jesus of Nazareth (King of the Jews?)**!_ Wasn’t raised Catholic but went to a Catholic high school, and thought that as I was typing it. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/37 "2009-08-17T17:37:28Z")
> [@Olentzero](#): > > I(Didn’t realize you was a woman, neither.) I get that a lot on the webbernets, since most of my names tend to be gender-neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/38 "2009-08-17T17:43:45Z")
Yeh, sorry f’r bein’ one of the crowd on that one. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/39 "2009-08-17T17:44:42Z")
I take absolutely zero offense. Given general internet demographics, it’s a reasonable assumption to make. ---
**Author:** ![Olentzero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/90ced4/32.png) [@Olentzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Olentzero)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2009, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273/40 "2009-08-17T18:18:11Z")
Well good. Now stop saying stuff about my mom and sister. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/or/506273.md?page=3)