# Orangutan rape? Legend or ugly fact?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [November 9, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055 "2002-11-09T19:52:20Z")
**Posts on this page:** 11
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@dr\_hermes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_hermes)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/1 "2002-11-09T19:52:20Z")
I`m reading a 1934 pulp novel where the heroine is locked in a cell next to a lustful orangutan and the vile Red Mandarin is telling our hero (the Spider) that if he doesn`t cooperate, the ape will be allowed to have his way with the lovely Nita.
My first thought was, `No! Come on, orangs are peaceful, gentle creaatures that you see on the Discovery channel placidly smiling for the camera. This is another pulp fallacy, like the man-eating octopus you often find in these stories.`
But a little Google searching has unsettled me with the conclusion that in fact orangutans do frequently rape their females (that is, mating despite the victims` struggles) and even other males. There are reported cases of orangs raised in human households who commit sexual aggression again human females. And of course, the people who actually have lived in the same areas with these apes have always claimed that sure, it happens every now and then.
I`ll never be able to watch EVERY WHICH WAY BUT LOOSE again without giving that Clyde a suspicious eye. What`s the verdict among our anthropology or zoology experts out there? Is this a foul slander of those redheaded primates or is this in fact just another example of animals being themselves?
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### Author:  [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2002, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/2 "2002-11-09T21:24:09Z")
[Disturbing Behaviors of the Orangutan](http://harpend.dsl.xmission.com/pennington/humannature/readings/required/disturb.pdf) by Maggioncalda and Sapolsky, _Scientific American_, June 2002.
Basically, it was thought that the dominant male orangutan in a population would mature sexually (developing those huge cheek flares, among other things) and do all the mating, while the other males would remain sexually immature. Recent observations indicate that some of the non-dominant males may become sexually mature, but without developing secondary characteristics (large size, cheek flares, etc.). Females, however, are typically only receptive to developed males, so the only way for these undeveloped males to mate is by force.
These are fairly recent discoveries, I think that at the time your book was written, it was just folklore (or the writer was pulling it out of his, er… hat).
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### Author:  [@GoldenGael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoldenGael)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2002, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/3 "2002-11-09T22:45:13Z")
In her book, **Reflections of Eden** , Professor Birute Galdikas, who has spent the last thirty years studying orang-utans in Borneo, discusses this problem with anecdotes from the **educated middle class native population**. The claim is that this certainly occurs, but it is felt to be no big deal, and no more horrible than a dog humping one’s leg.
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### Author:  [@dr\_hermes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_hermes)
#### Post date: [November 9, 2002, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/4 "2002-11-09T23:40:59Z")
Well, in the story, the assault proved fatal to the young woman involved. But then, the writer Norvell Page also seemed to think hypnosis was some sort of telepathic communication and that if the hypnotist died, instantly everyone under his spell would be freed, no matter where they were. So I don`t put much stock in his research. The funny thing about dogs humping your leg is that the owners seem to think you should be flattered. (`He doesn`t do that with everyone.`) Imagine the scene in Sumatra. (`And where have you been?` `Oh, an orangutan has a crush on me, luckily I`m wearing denim jeans…`)
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### Author:  [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2002, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/5 "2002-11-10T18:23:03Z")
Also, see the thread [Is Homo Sapiens the only specie that rapes?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=16057&highlight=orangutan).
[rant]I fail to see what is so “disturbing” about rape by orangutans. They are _animals_. They exhibit _animal behaviour_. Their actions are devoid of an ethical basis and hence cannot be disturbing.
Those who are disturbed by this behavior may argue (well, one academic did, anyway) that it is disturbing because some other people may argue that since rape is observed in higher primates, it becomes acceptable for us; or, at least, less unacceptable. I don’t buy it: to accept that being disturbed by this behaviour is logical is to accept the premises of the anticipated argument: that animal behaviour is relevant to ours. This is sheer lunacy.[/rant]
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### Author:  [@Speaker\_for\_the\_Dead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Speaker_for_the_Dead)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2002, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/6 "2002-11-10T18:50:38Z")
I think it’s disturbing not because of the fact that the orangutans would rape humans. It’s the idea. I suppose if beastiality doesn’t bother you, then this wouldn’t bother you either, but the fact is that it bugs me, and therefore this does.
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### Author:  [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2002, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/7 "2002-11-10T19:25:15Z")
> [@](#):
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> _ **jiHymas** wrote:_
> … that animal behaviour is relevant to ours. This is sheer lunacy.
Huh? Are we not animals? Is human behavior not a subset of animal behavior?
I don’t know what your talking about.
To the OP: The question doesn’t seem logical, in that it begs an anthropomorphic assumption that may not be valid. The closest definition of rape I can find in my dictionary that seems to fit your context is:
> [@](#):
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> _[url=]Merriam Webster_
> rape: 2 a : sexual intercourse with a woman by a man without her consent and chiefly by force or deception – compare STATUTORY RAPE b : unlawful sexual intercourse by force or threat other than by a man with a woman
It seems to me that any way you slice it, attributing rape to primates is a stretch of the definition of “person” or even “consent”. Even if we just define it as sexual intercourse by force, it would have to imply a lack of consent, and consent for a primate is a bit difficult to ascertain.
Nonetheless, I would love for **jiHymas** to provide a cite for an academic who suggests that the existence of “rape” in the nature of orangutan somehow makes rape in humans acceptable. Expected, perhaps.
Even in orangutan societies, rape by the non-alpha male is hardly considered acceptable behavior. In fact, the alpha male has been known to beat to the death such an aggressor.
It should also be noted that sexual aggression is practically non-existant in our closest primate relatives - the bonobos. The bonobo society is not hierarchical, as with many primate species, btw.
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### Author:  [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/8 "2002-11-10T19:51:01Z")
Well, I don’t think I’d want to be raped by an orangutan!!! No, perhaps an orangutan is not a human being-it’s not as “evil”, per se, as a human rapist. But it still would disturb me. And at the very least, it would be an attack-I was pretty freaked out when I was almost attacked by someone dog last year while walking to the bus stop.
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### Author:  [@dr\_hermes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dr_hermes)
#### Post date: [November 10, 2002, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/9 "2002-11-10T21:37:37Z")
`Consent for a primate` is easy to determine if the victim is kicking, screaming, biting the assailant and obviously resisting the act.
And it may not fit the exact dictionary definition, but I would use the term `rape` to include males on males and females on females (as in prisons, where fingers and tongues and blunt objects are forced where they`re not wanted). I suppose `sexual molestation` might be more accurate but it also seems vaguer.
My original surprise was simply because I had always thought of orangutans as being such sweet, lovable goofballs. But all living things are capable of aggression in various ways. I saw two hummingbirds battling it out this summer like mean little fighter jets and my illusions about those charming little critters were also diminished.
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### Author:  [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2002, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/10 "2002-11-11T01:30:13Z")
> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by AZCowboy \*
> **Nonetheless, I would love for jiHymas to provide a cite for an academic who suggests that the existence of “rape” in the nature of orangutan somehow makes rape in humans acceptable. Expected, perhaps.**
> [@](#):
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> [Disturbing Behaviours of the Orangutan](http://harpend.dsl.xmission.com/pennington/humannature/readings/required/disturb.pdf), Maggioncalda and Sapolsky, Scientific American, June 2002.
> **[t]here is a temptation to leap to a wrongheaded conclusion: because forcible copulation occurs in orangutans and something similar occurs in humans, rape has a natural basis and is therefore unstoppable**
> [@](#):
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> _An academic, personal communication_
> **Actually, people make entire careers and sell huge numbers of books on the incorrect premise above. For example, the single most widely read book in human evolution was Robert Audrey’s _The Territorial Imperative_, which was based on the entirely incorrect argument that because there are some (and in fact, not many) primate species that are territorial, so are humans, and that explains a great deal of human behaviour**
I fail to see anything “disturbing” about rape by orangutans. I do not choose to model my behaviour on higher primates; for Sapolsky & Maggioncalda to use the word “disturbing” in describing orangutan behaviour when in fact they are disturbed by the potential for humans to make arguments based on that behaviour is rather muddled thinking.
> [@](#):
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> _Originally posted by Guinistasia_
> **Well, I don’t think I’d want to be raped by an orangutan!!! No, perhaps an orangutan is not a human being-it’s not as “evil”, per se, as a human rapist. But it still would disturb me. And at the very least, it would be an attack-I was pretty freaked out when I was almost attacked by someone dog last year while walking to the bus stop.**
Well, of course. Where I take issue is your statement that _it’s not **as** “evil”, per se, as a human rapist_. I claim that rape by an orangutan, whether of human or orangutan females, is not evil at all. It is absolutely devoid of moral content. Morals and ethics are a solely human province.
Have the vicious orangutan or dog destroyed, certainly. But don’t be “disturbed” at its behaviour.
> [@](#):
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> _Originally posted by AZCowboy_
> **Huh? Are we not animals? Is human behavior not a subset of animal behavior?**
At a certain point, this becomes a matter of playing with definitions. Any definition of human behaviour as a subset of animal behaviour that does not account for humans’ unique ability to reason and to make moral and ethical choices and judgements is unacceptable.
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### Author:  [@AZCowboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AZCowboy)
#### Post date: [November 11, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orangutan-rape-legend-or-ugly-fact/136055/11 "2002-11-11T03:49:48Z")
> [@](#):
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> _ **jiHymas** wrote:_
> At a certain point, this becomes a matter of playing with definitions. Any definition of human behaviour as a subset of animal behaviour that does not account for humans’ unique ability to reason and to make moral and ethical choices and judgements is unacceptable.
Well, sure, with that we can agree. Your original statement was that one academic justified (human) rape as _acceptable_ in society due to these findings in the animal kingdom. That’s a far cry from “unstoppable”. Suggesting that acts such as rape are in our nature is hardly controversial. That it is somehow acceptable would be downright lunacy.
The potential of human behavior, not limited by environmental factors (such as moral and ethical choices), spans a very wide range of behavior, much of which is relevent to the study of primate behavior. And that is not lunacy at all.