# Orcas vs. sea lions vs. fishermen, et al **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686 "2019-01-30T20:36:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/1 "2019-01-30T20:36:56Z")
An old friend (a vegan) is angry that it will be legal to kill sea lions here, the reason being that sea lions are eating salmon that orcas depend on to survive. We have about 75 resident orcas, and they are not doing well. I told her I’d choose orcas over sea lions every time. She blames the entire situation on greedy fishermen. It’s true that Chinook salmon, the resident orca’s primary food source, is being overfished. But there are other factors. Dams restrict the salmons’ access to their breeding streams. Sea lions prey on the salmon while they are bunched up at the dams. Fewer salmon returning upstream means few salmon are hatched, which means less food for the orcas. Not to mention the pollutants in the water. She suggested tearing down the dams. The Elwah Dam has already been demolished, and I think there are two more scheduled to be taken out. I think that’s a good thing. On the other hand, Washington leads the nation in clean energy because of its hydroelectric plants. Get rid of all of the dams, and we’ll have to burn coal. Meanwhile, the orcas are declining. While commercial fishing may be curtailed, we can’t just wave a magic wand and get rid of dams, pollutants, and the sea lions that prey upon the orca’s food supply. Killing sea lions won’t solve the problem, but it may help some salmon runs from becoming extinct. I choose orcas over sea lions. Do you agree, or disagree? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/2 "2019-01-30T20:39:45Z")
Are the orcas LEGAL residents? (kidding) The orcas don’t eat the sea lions? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/3 "2019-01-30T20:43:07Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The orcas don’t eat the sea lions? No, the resident orcas are [fish-eaters](https://www.eopugetsound.org/sites/default/files/styles/magazinewidth_592px/public/topical_articles/images/SouthernResidentOrca_SummerDietPieChart_Hanson2010.png?itok=pe4gf9sm) (2010). [Secondary citation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_resident_killer_whales?fbclid=IwAR0Yynq005N51K5KNYXbjYGP4RFk_P8ZghJBBxRvdAhawfVt2TGScGEMHhg#Diet) (2008). ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/4 "2019-01-30T20:49:57Z")
I’d get rid of whichever of the three et Al. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/5 "2019-01-30T20:58:59Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, the resident orcas are [fish-eaters](https://www.eopugetsound.org/sites/default/files/styles/magazinewidth_592px/public/topical_articles/images/SouthernResidentOrca_SummerDietPieChart_Hanson2010.png?itok=pe4gf9sm) (2010). [Secondary citation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_resident_killer_whales?fbclid=IwAR0Yynq005N51K5KNYXbjYGP4RFk_P8ZghJBBxRvdAhawfVt2TGScGEMHhg#Diet) (2008). Thanks, I didn’t know about diet specialization between orca communities like that. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/6 "2019-01-30T21:07:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Thanks, I didn’t know about diet specialization between orca communities like that. People who don’t live here often don’t. I know I didn’t before I relocated. From [this page](https://www.killer-whale.org/what-do-killer-whales-eat/) [emphasis mine]: > [@](#): > > In general, killer whales feed on a large variety of fish, cephalopods and marine mammals. The estimated number of species consumed worldwide by orcas is around 140. They usually prey on squids, octopus, seals, sea lions, sea otters, rays, dolphins, sharks, baleen whales and of course, bony fishes. Occasionally, turtles and seabirds, including penguins are added to their diet. > > However, the feeding habits of the different populations of orcas are well known. Resident killer whales, inhabiting eastern North Pacific waters, feed primarily on salmon, particularly chinook salmon or king salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytscha). By contrast, transient orcas in the same region prefer marine mammals such as harbor seals (Phoca vitulina), elephant seals (Mirounga Genre), porpoises (Phocoenidae family), sea lions (subfamily Otariinae), minke whales (Balaenoptera acutorostrata and Balaenoptera bonaerensis) and others. > > Across the world, in Norwegian waters, they go after schools of fish and manifest preference for herring (Clupea Genre). New Zealand waters orcas prefer rays and sharks (Both Elasmobranchii Subclass) and those living in Antarctic feed on seals (Family Phocidae), minke whales and several species of fish such as the Antarctic toothfish (Dissostichus mawsoni). ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/7 "2019-01-30T21:11:24Z")
The whales don’t just start eating anything? Or they just die if there is not enough salmon, or something else? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/8 "2019-01-30T21:15:27Z")
Or what should we do if we see an endangered animal eating an endangered plant? Personally, I would ignore the vegan, and favor the meat eaters. If the only problem is the lack of fish for the meat eaters to eat, there are many successful breeding programs for salmonoid/salmonidae. The Great Lakes are annually stocked with Coho, Chinook, and Steelhead. OTOH, there are people who object to fish farming. > **[Cooke blocked from restocking Washington state salmon farm](https://www.undercurrentnews.com/2018/04/16/cooke-blocked-from-restocking-washington-state-salmon-farm/)** > > A Washington state judge will not allow Cooke Aquaculture to restock the net-pen farm near Cypress Island from which more than 300,000 Atlantic salmon escaped in August ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/9 "2019-01-30T21:20:27Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, the resident orcas are [fish-eaters](https://www.eopugetsound.org/sites/default/files/styles/magazinewidth_592px/public/topical_articles/images/SouthernResidentOrca_SummerDietPieChart_Hanson2010.png?itok=pe4gf9sm) (2010). [Secondary citation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_resident_killer_whales?fbclid=IwAR0Yynq005N51K5KNYXbjYGP4RFk_P8ZghJBBxRvdAhawfVt2TGScGEMHhg#Diet) (2008). They are “primarily” fish-eaters when there is an abundance of fish to dine on. Remove the fish feast, and orcas will find another primary food source, or move on to better feeding grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/10 "2019-01-30T21:23:11Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > The whales don’t just start eating anything? Or they just die if there is not enough salmon, or something else? It seems the resident orcas evolved over thousands of years to depend upon Chinook salmon. My friend wondered, ‘Why don’t they just eat sea lions?’ I don’t know the answer to that, other than they learned to eat fish, and fish is what they eat. Eating something else does not appear to be one of their survival strategies, as the declining numbers indicate. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/11 "2019-01-30T21:27:09Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > They are “primarily” fish-eaters when there is an abundance of fish to dine on. Remove the fish feast, and orcas will find another primary food source, or move on to better feeding grounds. The first citation is a chart that shows only fish. The second one says ‘Southern residents are fish-eating orcas’. Where are you reading ‘primarily’, specifically in regards to the resident orcas? ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/12 "2019-01-30T21:39:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > They are “primarily” fish-eaters when there is an abundance of fish to dine on. Remove the fish feast, and orcas will find another primary food source, or move on to better feeding grounds. It doesn’t appear this is true. Without sufficient Chinooks, the Puget Sound orcas are dying off. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/13 "2019-01-30T21:39:45Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > The first citation is a chart that shows only fish. The second one says ‘Southern residents are fish-eating orcas’. Where are you reading ‘primarily’, specifically in regards to the resident orcas? On the internet, of course. Orca will feed on fish, birds, and mammals. \*Killer whales have a diverse diet, although individual populations often specialize in particular types of prey. Some feed exclusively on fish, while others hunt marine mammals such as seals and other species of dolphin. They have been known to attack baleen whale calves, and even adult whales. Killer whales are apex predators, as no animal preys on them. …Killer whales are apex predators, meaning that they themselves have no natural predators. They are sometimes called the wolves of the sea, because they hunt in groups like wolf packs.[93] Killer whales hunt varied prey including fish, cephalopods, mammals, sea birds, and sea turtles.[94] Different populations or ecotypes may specialize, and some can have a dramatic impact on prey species. …Killer whales have also been observed preying on terrestrial mammals, such as deer swimming between islands off the northwest coast of North America.\* > **[Orca | Feeding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killer_whale#Feeding)** > > Orcas are apex predators, meaning that they themselves have no natural predators. They are sometimes called "wolves of the sea", because they hunt in groups like wolf packs. Orcas hunt varied prey including fish, cephalopods, mammals, seabirds, and sea turtles. Different populations or ecotypes may specialize, and some can have a dramatic impact on prey species. However, whales in tropical areas appear to have more generalized diets due to lower food productivity. Orcas spend fyi - What I actually said was, “They are “primarily” fish-eaters when there is an abundance of fish to dine on”. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/14 "2019-01-30T21:44:15Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > On the internet, of course. Orca will feed on fish, birds, and mammals. Go back and read post #6: > [@](#): > > Resident killer whales, inhabiting eastern North Pacific waters, feed primarily on salmon, particularly chinook salmon or king salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytscha). Then go back and read your own post: > [@doorhinge](#): > > Some feed exclusively on fish The resident orca population are fish-eaters. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/15 "2019-01-30T22:17:10Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Go back and read post #6: > > Then go back and read your own post: > > The resident orca population are fish-eaters. According to your own quote in post #6 - Resident killer whales, inhabiting eastern North Pacific waters, feed primarily on salmon, particularly chinook salmon or king salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytscha). You asked me, "Where are you reading ‘primarily’, specifically in regards to the resident orcas? " Another answer would be your #6 post. Are you claiming that orca will not leave an area that is lacking in food for an area that has abundant food? Are you claiming that emaciated carcasses of orca are washing up on any shores? Orca appear to be adaptable. Especially if they are starving. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/16 "2019-01-30T22:31:05Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > According to your own quote in post #6 - > Resident killer whales, inhabiting eastern North Pacific waters, feed primarily on salmon, particularly chinook salmon or king salmon (Oncorhynchus tshawytscha). Which does not mean they eat mammals. They feed primarily on salmon. Not all fish are salmon. Can you provide a citation that Southern Resident Orcas eat mammals? > [@doorhinge](#): > > Are you claiming that orca will not leave an area that is lacking in food for an area that has abundant food? Are you claiming that emaciated carcasses of orca are washing up on any shores? Orca appear to be adaptable. Especially if they are starving. These are Southern Resident Orcas. Recently they have been spotted as far south as central California and as far north as near Prince Rupert, BC. But for those recent exceptions, they stay in Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca, and southern Georgia Strait. And yes, there are [emaciated](https://kcts9.org/programs/earthfix/starving-orca-whales-dying-in-puget-sound) [orcas](https://www.nwpb.org/2018/08/05/group-hatches-plan-to-save-emaciated-and-endangered-puget-sound-orca/) in [Puget Sound](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/09/science/orcas-whales-endangered.html) > [@](#): > > Orcas are dying because they’ve been starving. > [@](#): > > Ane emaciated, four-year-old Puget Sound orca is drawing alarm. > [@](#): > > Listed as endangered since 2005, the orcas are essentially starving, as their primary prey, the Chinook, or king salmon, are dying off. Perhaps the orcas in Texas (that’s where you are, isn’t it?) eat sea lions; but up here, they don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/17 "2019-01-30T22:41:02Z")
In any case, it’s not what the orcas can do, or what they should do; it’s what they do do. And what they do do is eat salmon. Salmon whose populations are being decimated by overfishing, sea lions, dams, and pollution. So back to the gist of the OP: Does anyone have a problem with shooting sea lions that are eating salmon the orcas depend on? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/18 "2019-01-30T22:46:40Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > In any case, it’s not what the orcas can do, or what they should do; it’s what they do do. And what they do do is eat salmon. Salmon whose populations are being decimated by overfishing, sea lions, dams, and pollution. > > So back to the gist of the OP: Does anyone have a problem with shooting sea lions that are eating salmon the orcas depend on? They shoot horses, don’t they? I’d be okay, if “they” really can establish that it would save some Orcas. I can see them killing a whole lot of sea lions and there still not being enough salmon. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/19 "2019-01-30T23:32:25Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > In any case, it’s not what the orcas can do, or what they should do; it’s what they do do. And what they do do is eat salmon. Salmon whose populations are being decimated by overfishing, sea lions, dams, and pollution. > > So back to the gist of the OP: Does anyone have a problem with shooting sea lions that are eating salmon the orcas depend on? Why shoot the sea lions when there is the option of restocking salmon? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/20 "2019-01-30T23:37:31Z")
They’ve started shooting sea lions that have come up the Willamette as far as the falls in Oregon City because they impact fishery release salmon, human fishing AND orcas. They shoot 'em at North Bonneville dam too, those little buggers have figured out it’s much easier and no competition to just jaunt a ways up the rivers to hang out at the fish ladder buffet. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686.md?page=2)