# Orcas vs. sea lions vs. fishermen, et al **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 30, 2019, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686 "2019-01-30T20:36:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/21 "2019-01-30T23:54:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I’d be okay, if “they” really can establish that it would save some Orcas. I can see them killing a whole lot of sea lions and there still not being enough salmon. The permits are for five years, after which it will be determined if the measures are effective. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2019, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/22 "2019-01-30T23:56:54Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > Which does not mean they eat mammals. They feed primarily on salmon. Not all fish are salmon. Can you provide a citation that Southern Resident Orcas eat mammals? > > These are Southern Resident Orcas. Recently they have been spotted as far south as central California and as far north as near Prince Rupert, BC. But for those recent exceptions, they stay in Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca, and southern Georgia Strait. > > And yes, there are [emaciated](https://kcts9.org/programs/earthfix/starving-orca-whales-dying-in-puget-sound) [orcas](https://www.nwpb.org/2018/08/05/group-hatches-plan-to-save-emaciated-and-endangered-puget-sound-orca/) in [Puget Sound](https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/09/science/orcas-whales-endangered.html) > > Perhaps the orcas in Texas (that’s where you are, isn’t it?) eat sea lions; but up here, they don’t. I live in Texas? Really? I didn’t know that. I feel much warmer now. Thanks. (I guess that’s what can happen when people jump to erroneous conclusions.) One orca looks emaciated, but researchers are unable to determine exactly why it’s emaciated. According to your linked article - _An earlier attempt in late July to collect droplets of breath using a long boom held over J50’s blowhole yielded too small of a sample to provide a definitive diagnosis_. With no definitive diagnosis, it seems that the researchers are unable to determine exactly what is causing J50’s inability to eat, or maybe it’s an inability to digest, salmon. Do the other 75 orcas appear emaciated? Your linked article isn’t clear about that possibility. Are salmon plentiful between central California and Prince Rupert, BC? Is there another possible food source between central California and Prince Rupert, BC which orca’s feed/have fed on? If salmon are plentiful, orca will eat salmon. If salmon are not plentiful, orca have been known to eat something else. ---
**Author:** ![HelenGawn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@HelenGawn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HelenGawn)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/23 "2019-01-31T00:01:12Z")
Given that there are plenty of sea lions and declining populations of orcas and salmon - plus we hunt plenty of animals in an unbalanced ecosystem - the answer is easy. We can’t choose which to save based on cuteness and phylum. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/24 "2019-01-31T03:07:22Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > I live in Texas? Really? I didn’t know that. I feel much warmer now. Thanks. (I guess that’s what can happen when people jump to erroneous conclusions.) I didn’t jump to a conclusion. I thought you lived there. I confused you with **Clothahump**. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/25 "2019-01-31T03:28:53Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I didn’t jump to a conclusion. I thought you lived there. I confused you with **Clothahump**. Awww, SNAP! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/26 "2019-01-31T04:58:04Z")
I understand that the preference for fish is a learned habit. Can’t they introduce some seal-eating orcas to the area, to teach the locals? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/27 "2019-01-31T06:19:03Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I understand that the preference for fish is a learned habit. Can’t they introduce some seal-eating orcas to the area, to teach the locals? Doesn’t work that way. Their are already seal-eating orcas that transition through the area, but they don’t do much if any culture-hopping. They may not ever breed with each other at all. Think of them as very insular tribes or nations that speak mutually unintelligible languages. In fact that is exactly the case - they are genetically distinct( experienced biologists can tell transients from residents on sight based on size and fin shape ), have completely different calls and somewhat different social structures( large pods vs. small family groups ). Even the different resident pods “speak” different, though mutually intelligible dialects. Mammal-eating orcas in the area don’t eat fish, fish-eating orcas don’t eat mammals and it seems that it is purely cultural. We may in fact be seeing [speciation in action](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00319024) here. Some have argued they are in fact ALREADY [different species](https://genome.cshlp.org/content/early/2010/05/12/gr.102954.109.full.pdf+html). Orcas will eat a wide variety prey, _as a species_. But local populations are often highly specialized and pass down hunting skills as a society. They are not primarily instinctual hunters, but rather trained. So they’re quite bright . But it leaves local populations at the mercy of shifting conditions, as [they’re apparently not bright _enough_](https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsbl.2009.0468) to really learn new skills on the fly. Of course to a minor extent this is a zero sum game. Shooting California sea-lions( the primary target here )reduces the transient orca food supply a bit. But they have a wider prey selection of mammals( harbor seals are actually a more common prey item ) and C. sea-lion populations have been booming in recent decades. In general I think it is a poor solution - I’d rather close the commercial fishing season entirely and rehabilitate the salmon runs more actively. But not everyone wants to devastate the fishing industry to save a few whales. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/28 "2019-01-31T06:32:27Z")
I believe there are now at least two more dangerously emaciated whales. One already has what’s known as ‘peanut head syndrome’, which is the shape of the skull becoming visible. There has been some evidence that the whales are suffering from parasites. The main issue though is definately lack of salmon. Two or three emaciated whales doesn’t sound bad but keep in mind, that’s out of only seventy-five. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/29 "2019-01-31T15:58:50Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > No, the resident orcas are [fish-eaters](https://www.eopugetsound.org/sites/default/files/styles/magazinewidth_592px/public/topical_articles/images/SouthernResidentOrca_SummerDietPieChart_Hanson2010.png?itok=pe4gf9sm) (2010). [Secondary citation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_resident_killer_whales?fbclid=IwAR0Yynq005N51K5KNYXbjYGP4RFk_P8ZghJBBxRvdAhawfVt2TGScGEMHhg#Diet) (2008). When they run out of salmon, they will eat the sea lions… I mean, they ARE meat eaters ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/30 "2019-01-31T16:14:52Z")
Or the omnivore pod of orcas will move into that territory, once it becomes available to them. ---
**Author:** ![Darkon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@Darkon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/31 "2019-01-31T16:27:14Z")
Humans aren’t going to stop changing the world, so for other animals it’s either adapt or die. Sounds like the sea lions are adapting just fine, so why go out of our way to slaughter them? Orcas are intelligent apex predators, let them figure out there own damn survival strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/32 "2019-01-31T17:01:36Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > When they run out of salmon, they will eat the sea lions… I mean, they ARE meat eaters See post #27, and the links in post #16. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/33 "2019-01-31T19:40:10Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > When they run out of salmon, they will eat the sea lions… I mean, they ARE meat eaters It isn’t just a matter of switching to the sea lion section of the buffet line. I would imagine the killing and eating sealions is a whole different skill set to killing and eating salmon. If you took a bunch of Kansas farmers and plopped them in the middle of the outback with the comment that the aborigines have been living off the land here for centuries, you’d end up with a bunch of very hungry farmers after a couple of months. ---
**Author:** ![Darkon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/43a26b/32.png) [@Darkon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darkon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/34 "2019-01-31T20:45:18Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If you took a bunch of Kansas farmers and plopped them in the middle of the outback…you’d end up with a bunch of very hungry farmers after a couple of months. Have you forgotten about Outback Steakhouses? Seriously though, that is not a fair comparison. How about some umpteenth-generation net fishermen who must now use those same nets to catch sea lions or something else? Might they get hungry during the learning curve? Sure, but die out? Not likely. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/35 "2019-01-31T21:02:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > I didn’t jump to a conclusion. I thought you lived there. I confused you with **Clothahump**. In that case, you were wrong. I had given you the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/36 "2019-01-31T21:14:24Z")
> [@zoogirl](#): > > I believe there are now at least two more dangerously emaciated whales. One already has what’s known as ‘peanut head syndrome’, which is the shape of the skull becoming visible. > There has been some evidence that the whales are suffering from parasites. The main issue though is definately lack of salmon. > Two or three emaciated whales doesn’t sound bad but keep in mind, that’s out of only seventy-five. Some evidence of parasites? Are parasites a direct result of a lack of salmon in an orcas diet? Is that a good reason to decimate, or eradicate, sea lions? Stocking, or restocking, young salmon seems like a better choice. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/37 "2019-01-31T21:44:26Z")
Orca are very clever, and adaptable, to their environment. The biologist was baffled. _Orca Whale vs. Great white shark!!!_ [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9I_DcSbZjI) > **[Orcas vs great white sharks: in a battle of the apex predators who wins?](https://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2017/nov/16/orca-whales-vs-great-white-sharks-in-a-battle-of-the-apex-predators-who-wins)** > > It’s difficult to imagine the voracious great white shark as prey. Could orcas really be overpowering them and removing their livers? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/38 "2019-02-01T14:56:08Z")
> [@Darkon](#): > > Humans aren’t going to stop changing the world, so for other animals it’s either adapt or die. Sounds like the sea lions are adapting just fine, so why go out of our way to slaughter them? Orcas are intelligent apex predators, let them figure out there own damn survival strategy. I’m really hoping that this is what the orcas will do, preferably sooner rather than later. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/39 "2019-02-02T16:20:35Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > See post #27, and the links in post #16. > [@doorhinge](#): > > Some evidence of parasites? Are parasites a direct result of a lack of salmon in an orcas diet? Is that a good reason to decimate, or eradicate, sea lions? > > Stocking, or restocking, young salmon seems like a better choice. Actually, the whale that died last summer was thought to have been suffering from worms, in addition to the lack of salmon. The authorities did try to get medication into her but by then it was too late. Since she was already starving, losing what nutrients she did manage to get to the worms was just too much. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2019, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686/40 "2019-02-04T20:13:30Z")
The salmon - The life span of the salmon is fixed \* . After they spawn, they die. The fertilized eggs follow the usual process to become adult salmon. Those who manage to survive the trip downstream enter a large body of water, and spend the their remaining years eating, and being eaten. After crusing the oceans, they return to their stream of origin in order to spawn, and die. - _5: Ocean Life While some salmon remain in coastal water, others migrate northward to feedings grounds. Salmon may spend one to seven years in the ocean. Certain species have more flexible life history strategies, while others are more rigid. Chum may spend up to seven years at sea, but typically four. Pink salmon, on the other hand, spend a fixed 18 months at sea. Sockeye typically spend two years at sea, coho spend about 18 months, and chinook can spend up to 8 years before journeying back to their natal streams to spawn._ > **[The Salmon Life Cycle - Olympic National Park (U.S. National Park Service)](https://www.nps.gov/olym/learn/nature/the-salmon-life-cycle.htm)** Orca, Sea Lion, and humans are among those who feed on salmon. There seems to some question as to whether, or not, there are enough salmon to go around, and still leave breeding stock. The orca (southern residents) - \*Location - The southern residents have reportedly been seen off the coast of Oregon, Washington, and Vancouver Island, British Columbia. Recently, they have been spotted as far south as the coast of central California and as far north as the coast of Haida Gwaii. During the spring, summer, and fall, the southern residents tend to travel around the inland waterways of Puget Sound, the Strait of Juan de Fuca, and southern Georgia Strait.[14] Little is known about their range and movements during the winter months. Diet - Southern residents are fish-eating orcas that appear to prefer the Chinook salmon to other fish species. From visual sources, necropsy, and feces collection, the following food preferences have been reported: Salmon 97% Chinook (78% in late spring and fall) Chum (11%, more so in Fall) Coho (5%) Steelhead (2%) Sockeye (1%) Other fish 3% e.g. Pacific herring and quillback rockfish\* > **[Southern resident orcas | Diet](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_resident_killer_whales?fbclid=IwAR0Yynq005N51K5KNYXbjYGP4RFk_P8ZghJBBxRvdAhawfVt2TGScGEMHhg#Diet)** > > Southern residents are fish-eating orcas that prefer the Chinook salmon to other fish species. From visual sources, necropsy, and feces collection, the following food preferences have been reported: > 1.Salmon 97% > Chinook (78% in late spring and fall) > Chum (11%, more so in fall) > Coho (5%) > Steelhead (2%) > Sockeye (1%) | > 2.Other fish 3% > e.g. Pacific herring and quillback rockfish They have occasionally been recorded playfully killing porpoises without consuming them. It appears that the southern resident orcas are wide-ranging, and have a diverse, and adaptable, appetite. The sea lion - \*Range and habitat - The California sea lion ranges along the western coast and islands of North America, from southeast Alaska to central Mexico. Mitochondrial DNA sequences in 2009 have identified five distinct California sea lion populations: the U.S. or Pacific Temperate stock, the Western Baja California or Pacific Tropical stock, and the Southern, Central, and Northern Gulf of California stocks.[6] The U.S. stock breeds mainly in the Channel Islands, although some breeding sites may be established in northern California, and females are now commonly found there.[1] The Western Baja California stock mainly breeds near Punta Eugenia and at Isla Santa Margarita. The above-mentioned stocks are separated by the Ensenada Front. The stocks of the Gulf of California live in the shallow waters of the north (Northern stock), the tidal islands near the center (Central stock), and the mouth of the bay (Southern stock). The stock status of the sea lions at the deep waters of the central bay has not been analyzed.[6] Vagrants can reach western north pacific such as on Commander Islands.[17] Although several otariinae have been recorded around Japanese archipelago in recent years, their exact origins are unclear.[18] Diet and predation - California sea lions feed on a wide variety of seafood, mainly squid and fish, and sometimes clams. Commonly eaten fish and squid species include salmon, hake, Pacific whiting, anchovy, herring, rockfish, lamprey, dogfish, and market squid.[21] They mostly forage near mainland coastlines, the continental shelf, and seamounts. They may also search along the ocean bottom.[7] California sea lions may eat alone or in small to large groups, depending on the amount of food available. They sometimes cooperate with other predators, such as dolphins, porpoises, and seabirds, when hunting large schools of fish.[22] Sea lions sometimes follow dolphins and exploit their hunting efforts.[3] Adult females feed between 10–100 km (6.2–62.1 mi) from shore.[12] Males may forage as far as 450 km (280 mi) from shore when water temperatures rise.[23] They also have learned to feed on steelhead and salmon below fish ladders at Bonneville Dam and at other locations where fish must queue in order to pass through dams and locks that block their passage. Oregon and Washington state governments annual killings In November 2018, the State of Oregon obtained a permit to kill 93 sea lions per year below Willamette Falls. Under a similar program, Oregon and Washington had killed over 150 sea lions on the Columbia river by January 2019. \* > **[California sea lion](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_sea_lion)** > > The California sea lion (Zalophus californianus) is a coastal eared seal native to western North America. It is one of six species of sea lions. Its natural habitat ranges from southeast Alaska to central Mexico, including the Gulf of California. California sea lions are sexually dimorphic; males are larger than females, and have a thicker neck, and a protruding sagittal crest. They mainly haul-out on sandy or rocky beaches, but they also frequent manmade environments such as marinas and wharv... Sea lions are also wide-ranging, and adaptable. Who gets to decide which species deserves to live, or die? How does someone make this decision? Are Orca considered to be more pretty than a salmon, or a sea lion? Do you sacrifice the less intelligent in order to save the more intellegent? Is it too expensive to stock more salmon? Are the sea lions easier to kill? Did the states of Oregon, and Washington simply draw names out of a hat in order to make their decisions? _Sorry sea lions. This just doesn’t look like it’s your day._ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcas-vs-sea-lions-vs-fishermen-et-al/828686.md?page=3)