# orchestra conductors...what's the point? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 25, 2004, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049 "2004-02-25T05:11:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/21 "2004-02-25T15:25:45Z")
The conductor is also the showman. Many people in the audience look to him for entertainment and help in understanding a piece. I was at a rehearsal where the conductor told the orchestra members …“for this part ignore my left hand and arm - that is for the audience. You watch the right.” His use of the left was much more exaggerated and flamboyant. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/22 "2004-02-25T16:17:24Z")
> [@GKW](#): > > The conductor is also the showman. Many people in the audience look to him for entertainment and help in understanding a piece. I was at a rehearsal where the conductor told the orchestra members …“for this part ignore my left hand and arm - that is for the audience. You watch the right.” His use of the left was much more exaggerated and flamboyant. Yes, but such people can hardly be called conductors. “Charletans” might be a better word. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/23 "2004-02-25T16:38:22Z")
Rock Bands do have conductors, when they need them. An example is Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band playing born to run. At one point the tempo stops and the band holds a chord for a while till Bruce counts them back in. (ONE TWO THREE FOUR! The highways jammed…) Watch a live performance and you will see someone in the band leading the others through little sections of the music. Then there is the sound engineer. He is also doing one of the jobs of the conductor. As **Starving Artists** asked the proper balance of volume of the various sections is constantly being adjusted by the conductor. With a rock band you have a the tech guy at the sound board adjusting the levels of the instruments. Usually set before the show but he can make adjustments on the fly if necessary. Whenever two of more musicians play together someone will ‘conduct’ through any sort of tempo change. Maybe the 1st violin will nod his head or the pianist with get everyone though it or the lead guitar will do something to show where the next downbeat is going to be. But **Bienville** asks > [@](#): > > I completely get the whole conductor and sheet music thing for large scale orchestral concerts. But, post-rehearsal period, is it really necessary when you’re just playing one song with Guns n Roses??? Yes, I’m sure the musicians union insisted that a conductor be there. Now a great story about one of the greatest conductors of all time Toscanini. He took his orchestra on a nation wide train tours. He was pretty famous for his temper and one day the second bassoonist was mortified to see that his instrument was damaged and that his low E Flat (IIRC) key was damaged. Since they were on the road, there wasn’t time or qualified people to fix it. Terrified he told Toscanini about the damage to his instrument. Toscanini thought for a moment and said ‘Don’t worry, you don’t have any low E Flats one the pieces we’re playing today’. In short the conductor knows the music. They know the entire piece. The various people in the orchestra may know their part but making all those parts add up requires a conductor. ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/24 "2004-02-25T16:43:22Z")
> [@aeropl](#): > > I’m guessing that an orchestra with tons of practice playing the same piece will only need a conductor to start them off, and after that they should be fine. Is this generally correct? Actally, **aeropl** , you’re not too far off. **LMM** has already mentioned the [Orpheus Chamber Orchestra](http://www.orpheusnyc.com), which is sort of a “music direction by committee.” I’ve never seen one of their performances, but I wouldn’t doubt they still require their concertmaster (an elected position, BTW) to start at the same time. I did have the pleasure of watching the New York Philharmonic perform on TV for outgoing director Kurt Masur’s birthday celebration. To open the concert, the orchestra performed Leonard Bernstein’s Overture to _Candide_, as an memorial to the composer and former music director, without a conductor. In that performance, the concertmaster, Glenn Dicterow, simply started the group himself and sat down. _Candide_ is a rhythmically complex piece with some odd time signatures, but this is the New York Philharmonic we’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/25 "2004-02-25T17:17:11Z")
Without a conductor, a piece of music performed by, say, 100 musicians would sound like a piece of music performed by . . . 100 musicians. With a conductor–a good conductor–an orchestra sounds like a single coherent unit. If you listen to a single piece, as conducted by several different conductors, you will notice huge differences in the piece. It’s those differences that make the conductor an artist, and not just a highly paid metronome. A violinist plays a violin; a conductor plays the entire orchestra. ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/26 "2004-02-25T17:27:28Z")
You might make a comparison between a conductor and the coach of a basketball team. Yes, each player out on the floor is highly skilled and knows damned well how to play the game. But no matter how good your players are, a good coach is crucial when you’re aiming to win in a real competition. A coach has the power to call the shots, to have things done _his_ way, to bring all the egos into line. He spots potential problems that the individual players might not be able to see from their limited perspective, and adjusts things as needed. A conductor who does nothing more than wave a stick is like a coach who send his team onto the floor with no instructions. It is also quite true that musicians sitting in different sections of the orchestra may have a difficult time hearing one another. This is why they are supposed to count with the tempo instead of listening for their cues, and watch the conductor. The conductor is standing at the focal point for all of the sounds being made, and is in the best position (literally) to hear whether any section or individual is out of tempo or off key. There are some pieces of music, though, for which other members of the orchestra take over the leadership role – most notably concertos in which some individual instrument is the centerpiece. So an orchestra playing Rachmaninoff’s _Piano Concerto No. 2_ would watch the conductor only when the piano is silent, then take their cues from the piano for the rest of the piece. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/27 "2004-02-25T17:27:33Z")
The Orpheus Chamber notwithstanding, the conductor plays a huge role in managing egos. By the time a musician is symphony caliber, he or she has a pretty good idea of how to play a given piece. Unfortunately, that may not agree with any other musician’s idea of how to play that same piece. Remember USA for Africa’s recording of “We Are the World” and Quincy Jones’ famous order, “Check your egos at the door”? A conductor has to balance the musical skills (and egos) of the entire ensemble to prevent “creative chaos.” ---
**Author:** ![Dragonblink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Dragonblink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dragonblink)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/28 "2004-02-25T17:39:30Z")
Actors don’t need a director to tell them what to say and when to get on and off the stage either – that’s all in the script. But the director makes crucial decisions about how stuff will be played, where people get on and off the stage, etc etc. > [@tdn](#): > > I am under the illusion that dynamics include fff, ff, f, mf, mp, p, pp, and ppp. This is my own personal fantasy. In reality, there are only two. They are fff and ffff. Are you sure you’re not missing a few issimos? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2004, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/29 "2004-02-25T20:07:03Z")
Musical egos can indeed be huge, and individual musicians often have very strong opinions about the how a work should be performed. It is not surprising, therefore, that many conductors tend to be martinets, demanding total obedience, and having little tolerance for dissent. Thus, there is frequently little love lost between the conductor and the musicians. This is reflected in the many, many jokes made about conductors: What is the difference between an orchestra and a bull? On a bull, the horns are in front and the asshole is in the back. What is the ideal weight for a conductor? Oh, about seven pounds, counting the urn. A person called the main office of an orchestra one day and asked to speak to the conductor. He was told that the conductor had died unexpectedly that morning. He hung up. A few minutes later, he called again, asked the same question, and received the same response. A few minutes later he called again. And again. And again. Finally, the receptionist asked why he kept calling back for the conductor. Hadn’t he heard the conductor was dead? “I know”, said the man, “but I just love to hear you say it.” ---
**Author:** ![Alto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Alto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alto)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/30 "2004-02-26T00:06:05Z")
I’ve sung with some excellent conductors (and a few not so good), and I know I have learned a lot from the good ones–both about technique and about the music. With a complicated work–say the Missa Solemnis–I could (probably) have learned all the notes by myself and sung them loud and soft at the right moments, but I didn’t really “get” the piece. I hadn’t given much thought to why parts were the way they were, how they were interacting with other parts, what kind of effect a phrase could have, how to make difficult or strange parts work, things like that. I would have had to study the score for months just to get the piece as a whole with all the lines played by every instrument or voice into my head, and even then I wouldn’t have known how to shape it. I’m always amazed at the depth of familiarity and understanding a good conductor has of a piece by the time rehearsals start. ---
**Author:** ![Nanook](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c57346/32.png) [@Nanook](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nanook)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/31 "2004-02-26T05:20:59Z")
This question perfectly demonstrates why American music education is a disaster. ---
**Author:** ![klockwerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/klockwerk/32/6475_2.png) [@klockwerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/klockwerk)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/32 "2004-02-26T05:37:20Z")
> [@Nanook](#): > > This question perfectly demonstrates why American music education is a disaster. It’s sad isn’t it? But he asked, and thanks to the SD, he’s getting some great answers, and others are learning as well. I was quite shocked at first when I heard some people saying that orchestra should not need a conductor (in their opinions), claiming that rock bands and the like didn’t need them, so why would anyone else need them? I realized that there are probably a lot of people who don’t understand this, and I’m glad this topic came up so things could be clarified. Does an orchestra absolutely need a conductor? No. But it certainly helps in many different ways. I play in a wind band and an orchestra, and believe me, I don’t know where we’d be without our conductors. Don’t be so quick to judge, some people spend years studying to become conductors too, in fact, the director of concert bands here spend years and years (and plenty of cash) getting his Doctorate degree in the practice. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/33 "2004-02-26T05:42:33Z")
I highly recommend going to the library or somehow getting ahold of [Leonard Bernstein’s Young People’s Concerts](http://www.leonardbernstein.com/studio/element2.asp?FeatID=5&AssetID=24), which are by no means only for the young. While I don’t know that he ever addresses directly the issue of the conductor (I haven’t seen all of them), it certainly gives one an oportunity to see a master conductor at work with an orchestra in a very intimate way. People have also made the excellent point that even in small ensembles of all types (classical, jazz, rock), there is generally one person (or the role may rotate) who ‘conducts’, or who the other musicians look to for cues and such. Working most often with rock bands, I can say that I definitely ‘conduct’ as well as play, using my body, my voice, my facial expressions, who I choose to look at at a given time, even how I use my hands on the keyboard. Group music rarely just comes together without musical leadership. ---
**Author:** ![Club\_33](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@Club\_33](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Club_33)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/34 "2004-02-26T06:10:58Z")
> [@Nanook](#): > > This question perfectly demonstrates why American music education is a disaster. Not to mention the rest of our education system but that’s another thread. The sad thing is that unless music is incredibly simplistic, it just isn’t popular. And the people that enjoy this music don’t even realize how dumbed down it is. Given the most rudimental understanding of music, people become bored with the crap that is put in our faces and tend to gravitate towards music that is a bit deeper and intellectual. Learning about music also has been proven to improve understanding of mathematics, which is all the more reason that it should hold more importance in our school systems. Hopefully, a thread like this might cause someone to listen a little more carefully to a classical piece and try to hear all of the layers and how they are interacting. The conductor’s role in the process is pretty darn important. ---
**Author:** ![AwSnappity](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a3d4f5/32.png) [@AwSnappity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AwSnappity)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/35 "2004-02-26T14:35:42Z")
> [@Jpeg Jones](#): > > Generally, the person with the smallest note values (16ths, for example, when everyone else is playing eighths) will be in control of tempo. That’s not right. The person who keeps the beat is generally the person with the steadiest beat (be it repeated quarters, eighths, whatever) and/or the slowest notes. A lot of players have the tendency to rush the fast notes like mad. Shout out to **Eureka** : I used to live in WL too! ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/36 "2004-02-26T15:05:33Z")
> [@av8rmike](#): > > I did have the pleasure of watching the New York Philharmonic perform on TV for outgoing director Kurt Masur’s birthday celebration. To open the concert, the orchestra performed Leonard Bernstein’s Overture to _Candide_, as an memorial to the composer and former music director, without a conductor. In that performance, the concertmaster, Glenn Dicterow, simply started the group himself and sat down. _Candide_ is a rhythmically complex piece with some odd time signatures, but this is the New York Philharmonic we’re talking about. The _Candide_ overture does have a few tricky time changes, but the pulse doesn’t really change (except for that one point where there’s a pause before the last minute and a half or so of the piece). As long as the players know how to listen and can keep an inner beat (both qualities which should be no less than expected of a player in a high-profile orchestra like the NYP), this overture isn’t that hard to pull off without a conductor. The one time I’ve played that overture, we in the orchestra were all better served _not_ to watch the conductor, as he threatened to ruin the whole thing. It’s a shame when conductors rely on the _orchestra_ for the beat, instead of the other way around! ---
**Author:** ![Marathon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Marathon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marathon)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/37 "2004-02-26T15:14:35Z")
Oh, and I forgot. For **tdn** : Would you care to name a few conductors in particular that you respect, idolize, enjoy, and/or have been influenced by? ---
**Author:** ![Kizarvexius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/da6949/32.png) [@Kizarvexius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kizarvexius)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/38 "2004-02-26T20:30:39Z")
One of the reasons that operatic singers as a class of people have such a reputation for overblown egos is that in performance, a soloist has complete freedom. The conductor has to watch _them_, adjust to any changes in tempo that they decide to throw in on the spot, \*and \* keep the orchestra together. Having the privilege of lording it over the God-on-earth conductor will go to just about anyone’s head, but it really is the bed way to handle it. A couple of years ago, the gentleman my Gilbert & Sullivan company had hired to conduct the orchestra during our performances of _The Mikado_ was forced to withdraw his services during the second week of the show. So our vocal director Jim stepped in as a guest conductor. And completely disregarded the unwritten rule that the vocalists take their own lead during solos. His idea of the proper tempi were mystifying – some way too fast and others waaaay too slow. And it practically took a court order to get the guy to cooperate and let us choose our own pace. My ex was singing the role of Yum-Yum (the female lead), and Jim was conducting the orchestra at a very brisk pace through her big solo number, which is a SLOW song. When the members of the orchestra realized that they had finished the first verse about twenty seconds before the soloist, they (as a group) disregarded the conductor, waiting for her to catch up, then played at her pace. Jim was furious but our director finally ordered him to stop being such a horse’s ass or we’d be performing to a piano the next night and he’d be out on his ear. That was Jim’s last year with our company. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [February 26, 2004, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049/39 "2004-02-26T21:18:58Z")
I’ve always liked [this piece](http://www.harrogateband.org/humour40.htm) about orchestra’s by Garrison Keillor. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orchestra-conductors-whats-the-point/231049.md?page=1)