# Orcs and Goblins in LOTR **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571 "2015-01-11T21:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/1 "2015-01-11T21:53:39Z")
So, are Orcs and Goblins in Middle Earth two different races or two names for the same thing? The original movies make it hard to tell while the Hobbit movies imply they are different. While I read the The Hobbit many many years ago I never read the LotR books so I am wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/2 "2015-01-11T21:59:44Z")
[Same thing, and different things](http://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/28931/are-orcs-and-goblins-really-the-same-thing). > [@](#): > > The answer is that it depends on when in time Tolkien wrote the story. Various stories depict them as clearly different creatures, while others depict them as being the same. > > > [@](#): > > > > Christopher Tolkien notes that whilst in the Tale of Tinúviel the author clearly differentiates between “goblins and Orcs”, the two terms appear to be synonymous in the Tale of Turambar. > > And here again there are two conflicting definitions from two separate books of the Elvish language: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Qenya Lexicon from approximately 1915 defines Orc as meaning “monster, demon”, and the Gnomish Lexicon dated 1917 defines Orc as “goblin”, alongside a definition of Gong as “one of a tribe of the Orcs, a goblin”. Christopher Tolkien also notes, with interest, that in the Lexicon, the word Gnome (later Noldor) is an emendation from Goblin > > To summarize: They are, as of right now, the same creature. They were not originally intended to be, Tolkien later changed his mind. There is direct evidence of this, foremost is that his own son clearly says that he had originally intended them to be different. > > [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orc_%28Middle-earth%29), with good citations. > > EDIT: > > The asker revised the question, and asks now "Are they the same thing in TLOTR and The Hobbit. To answer, I’m going to quote Gandalf in The Hobbit: > > “Before you could get round Mirkwood in the North you would be right among the slopes of the Grey Mountains, and they are simply stiff with goblins, hobgoblins, and orcs of the worst description.” – Gandalf > > Again, here we have the answer depending on when Tolkien wrote the stories, as I said above. At the time of writing The Hobbit Tolkien had considered them different, based on this and statements like this. In The Lord of the Rings there are statements to indicate that they are the same. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/3 "2015-01-11T22:00:24Z")
Did Tolkien ever consider any non-evil orcs? Were there any dissenters among the orc ranks? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/4 "2015-01-11T22:46:56Z")
I’ve always thought of them as different varieties. Like Indian and African elephants are different species, but both are clearly elephants. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/5 "2015-01-11T23:24:41Z")
Different varieties. Also, during the period of LOTR, we see the forced fast-breeding of a third variety, the Uruk-Hai. Tolkien genetics seems remarkably plastic. Men “degrade” rapidly when exposed to corrupting influences. Gollum certainly did. (If Gollum were to father a child, would it be a healthy, normal Stoor…or degraded?) **iiandyiiii** : In LOTR, we see one or two less evil orcs. The one who slathered healing salve on Merry’s head-wound seemed slightly less vicious than some others. Some of the others they saw in Mordor seemed more interested in just getting by – keep yer mouth shut and do what yer told – than in fighting or causing trouble. In the end, Aragorn gave the lands around the Sea or Nurnen to the survivors of Sauron’s army. Was that only for the men…or also for orcs? Were the orcs exterminated utterly in a furious genocide, or did they, too, march off to resettlement and an effort at rehabilitation? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/6 "2015-01-11T23:30:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did Tolkien ever consider any non-evil orcs? Were there any dissenters among the orc ranks? There was Ralph Nadorc, but he never got more than 1 or 2% of the orc vote. I always thought of them, in terms of size, as: Uruk Hai \> Orcs \> Goblins. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/7 "2015-01-12T00:27:40Z")
Even in _The Hobbit_, the sword that was specifically focused on slaying goblins, the “Goblin Cleaver”, was called “Orcrist”. “Orc” is just the Elvish name for them, and Bilbo wasn’t as familiar with Elvish at the time of _The Hobbit_, so he called them by their Westron name. And it’s my speculation that orcs do have free will, and that one could choose to be good… but that by so choosing, it would cease to be an orc and revert to being an elf. A very ugly elf, perhaps, physically indistinguishable from an orc, even, but an elf. ---
**Author:** ![Quimby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/22d042/32.png) [@Quimby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quimby)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/8 "2015-01-12T00:32:48Z")
It felt to me that you could make a case that Orcs and Goblins hated the other races because the other races treated them like vermin. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/9 "2015-01-12T01:29:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Did Tolkien ever consider any non-evil orcs? IIRC, Tolkien never really decided; he _was_ going for the archetypical Evil Horde race, but the idea of an irredeemable, innately evil race bothered him on a philosophical/theological level. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/10 "2015-01-12T01:34:49Z")
> [@Quimby](#): > > So, are Orcs and Goblins in Middle Earth two different races or two names for the same thing? The original movies make it hard to tell while the Hobbit movies imply they are different. While I read the The Hobbit many many years ago I never read the LotR books so I am wondering. I’ve been playing the LOTR DVD’s on the kitchen TV. Which is set where I can’t see the screen well while working–so I turn on the Commentaries. In the first film, three categories of orcs were created. There were the garden variety who worked for Saruman, the Uruk Hai & the skittering, insectoid Moria crew. I think the Mordor orcs were yet another subset. A bit from Tolkien, lots more from the film folks. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/11 "2015-01-12T02:39:44Z")
Tolkien-Smolkien. The Monster Manual clearly lists them as separate types of creatures, though both are considered to be “giant-class”, so Ranger bonuses apply. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/12 "2015-01-12T02:55:35Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > “Orc” is just the Elvish name for them, and Bilbo wasn’t as familiar with Elvish at the time of _The Hobbit_, so he called them by their Westron name. Yes, exactly. In the preface to _The Hobbit_, Tolkien writes “Orc is not an English word. It occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds).” [I’m no expert on fantasy in general or Tolkien in particular, but a few years back I wrote a short book for kids/young adults on goblins, and my editor queried me quite sharply on whether orcs and goblins REALLY were the same. Fortunately I had reread _The Hobbit_ in its entirety as a precursor to writing the book and was able to quote her chapter and verse.] ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/13 "2015-01-12T03:12:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > IIRC, Tolkien never really decided; he _was_ going for the archetypical Evil Horde race, but the idea of an irredeemable, innately evil race bothered him on a philosophical/theological level. An interesting question. If the orcs are really just elves degraded by Morgoth, can they be condemned? Especially from a Catholic perspective like Tolkien. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/14 "2015-01-12T03:54:04Z")
Many years ago, at a meeting of a branch of the Tolkien Fellowship, we whipped up a chart, cross-indexing all of Tolkien’s races of beings with the Seven Deadly Sins. Tolkien was a bit of a prude, so “Lust” was drastically under-represented. The only clear instance we could find was Wormtongue lusting for Eowyn. Anger? Tons of it! Pride? Lots! The most astonishing thing to come from this was that none of the sins seem to apply to the Crebain, the spying birds Saruman sent out to look for the Nine Walkers. They were just doing their job. So we came up with a unique Tolkienian slogan: “The Spying Birds are Without Sin.” ---
**Author:** ![Barking\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Barking\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barking_Dog)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/15 "2015-01-12T04:33:51Z")
I’d always fanwanked orcs and goblins as mutated men and elves, respectively. What about trolls and giants? Are they related species in Tolkien’s uinverse? ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/16 "2015-01-12T06:15:49Z")
> [@Barking\_Dog](#): > > I’d always fanwanked orcs and goblins as mutated men and elves, respectively. > > What about trolls and giants? Are they related species in Tolkien’s uinverse? Was it Treebeard who said that just as Orcs are corrupted Elves, Trolls are corrupted Ents? Or are the '60s messing with my mind again? ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/17 "2015-01-12T07:06:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Different varieties. Also, during the period of LOTR, we see the forced fast-breeding of a third variety, the **Uruk-Hai.** > > [snip] > > **iiandyiiii** : In LOTR, we see one or two less evil orcs. \*\*The one who slathered healing salve on Merry’s head-wound seemed slightly less vicious than some others. \*\* Some of the others they saw in Mordor seemed more interested in just getting by – keep yer mouth shut and do what yer told – than in fighting or causing trouble. I seem to recall (or maybe the following, is just suggested in the books) that the Uruk-Hai are orc / human crossbreeds – a project of Saruman’s. Those in Saruman’s service, in the mixed band which captures Merry and Pippin – including the “healer” guy – are Uruk-Hai. Thus, nasty though they are, they can be envisaged as retaining some human good qualities, which “pure” orcs would lack. I have a bit of a soft spot for Ugluk, the captain of the Uruk-Hai unit in this part of Book 3. He comes across as a conscientious officer, who in his way cares about his troops; and he’s a worrier and a pessimist. He’s apprehensive that his guys may lose the engagement, to the Rohirrim, whom he grudgingly respects for their fighting prowess – as things come about, his fears turn out to be fully justified. ---
**Author:** ![vontsira](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/51bf81/32.png) [@vontsira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vontsira)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/18 "2015-01-12T07:41:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > In the end, Aragorn gave the lands around the Sea or Nurnen to the survivors of Sauron’s army. Was that only for the men…or also for orcs? Were the orcs exterminated utterly in a furious genocide, or did they, too, march off to resettlement and an effort at rehabilitation? If I remember rightly, the lands around the Sea of Nurnen in Mordor went to the human former “civilian” slaves in Mordor, of Sauron. I’ve always had the impression (perhaps wrongly) that there weren’t many human combatants fighting directly for Sauron – as opposed to his allies the Easterlings and Southrons, who had issued from their own countries: those among them who survived the war, could go back there. I’ve always felt curious about how things would have gone with the ex-slaves’ settlement in “liberated Mordor”, as above. I see the poor so-and-so’s as having dreadful problems: they’d have little idea of, and very little relevant experience re, running a nation-state of their own. Presumably King Elessar would do his best for them, in the shape of assorted advisors, and aid missions. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/19 "2015-01-12T11:09:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I always thought of them, in terms of size, as: Uruk Hai \> Orcs \> Goblins. Absolutely. Also the Uruk-Hai were not weakened by the Sun (PJ’s puny movies notwithstanding) And as far as Hai, there were the **Olog-Hai** - the smarter-than-the-average trolls who could also tolerate sunlight. Though probably not an elf steering their head. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ac8455/32.png) [@Your\_Great\_Darsh\_Face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Your_Great_Darsh_Face)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/20 "2015-01-12T12:48:59Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Was it Treebeard who said that just as Orcs are corrupted Elves, Trolls are corrupted Ents? Or are the '60s messing with my mind again? Treebeard says that trolls were made _in mockery of_ Ents, but not that they were corrupted Ents - and you’d expect sunrise to turn a corrupted Ent to wood, not stone. Also, of course, Treebeard is old and remembers a lot of stuff, but he is not infallible. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571.md?page=2)