# Orcs and Goblins in LOTR **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571 "2015-01-11T21:53:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/21 "2015-01-12T13:32:39Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > In the end, Aragorn gave the lands around the Sea or Nurnen to the survivors of Sauron’s army. Was that only for the men…or also for orcs? Were the orcs exterminated utterly in a furious genocide, or did they, too, march off to resettlement and an effort at rehabilitation? Is genocide even possible if the being in question is some magically corrupted beyond recognizable other being? I’ve always felt the orcs/goblins were under a spell basically, they cannot choose to turn “good” because they are being mind controlled by magic and can’t be restored. I guess in scifi terms maybe the best comparison would be the borg or something(yes I know there are a ton of examples of accidents restoring free volition) and there isn’t really anything to do but mercy kill them basically. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/22 "2015-01-12T15:01:01Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even in _The Hobbit_, the sword that was specifically focused on slaying goblins, the “Goblin Cleaver”, was called “Orcrist”. “Orc” is just the Elvish name for them, and Bilbo wasn’t as familiar with Elvish at the time of _The Hobbit_, so he called them by their Westron name. There’s a passage that pretty much establishes that orcs are just a large variant of goblins: > [@Chapter 5](#): > > The passage was low and roughly made. It was not too difficult for the hobbit, except when, in spite of all care, he stubbed his poor toes again, several times, on nasty jagged stones in the floor. “A bit low for goblins, at least for the big ones,” thought Bilbo, not knowing that even the big ones, the orcs of the mountains, go along at a great speed stooping low with their hands almost on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/23 "2015-01-12T15:12:51Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Tolkien-Smolkien. The Monster Manual clearly lists them as separate types of creatures, though both are considered to be “giant-class”, so Ranger bonuses apply. I don’t remember if this was canon or our own interpretation, but kobolds grew up to be goblins, which became orcs, which became hobgoblins, then ogres, then trolls, then giants… they just kept growing until they were Titans, if they lived that long. ---
**Author:** ![Lasciel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e79b87/32.png) [@Lasciel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lasciel)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/24 "2015-01-12T15:25:48Z")
I know that orcs and goblins are supposed to be the same thing, but I do like the Jackson-created visual difference where goblins are all spidery and skittery and lean, and orcs are taller and beefier. Even so, it’s easy to look at a 25 year old American heavy-weight lifter and a 12 year old Chinese gymnast and see equally extreme body differences, so they can still be the same species, just vastly differently raised/fed/maintained. I always felt sorry for them, actually. I learned that they were corrupted elves, and always wondered if there was some part of them that knew they were horrible twisted mutations and suffered from really awful self-hatred, or if they were all Stockholm-syndromed or just plain utterly misinformed like North Korean citizens. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/25 "2015-01-12T15:46:32Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > and the Gnomish Lexicon dated 1917 defines Orc as “goblin”, alongside a definition of Gong as “one of a tribe of the Orcs, a goblin”. Christopher Tolkien also notes, with interest, that in the Lexicon, the word Gnome (later Noldor) is an emendation from Goblin. I sort of wish Tolkien had stayed with the original idea of Noldor = Gnomes. The _Silmarillion_ would have been drastically different, but it might have been interesting. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/26 "2015-01-12T16:03:21Z")
> [@OttoDaFe](#): > > Was it Treebeard who said that just as Orcs are corrupted Elves… I thought Gandalf said that. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/27 "2015-01-12T16:06:02Z")
[QUOTE=Goblin King] Abominations, mutations, deviations…that all you’re gonna find down here [/QUOTE] I know its not canon - and I’m sure that I’ll be roasted alive for quoting from the EE of Hobbit 1 - but - I like it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/28 "2015-01-12T16:38:38Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **mbh** : > > I sort of wish Tolkien had stayed with the original idea of Noldor = Gnomes. The Silmarillion would have been drastically different, but it might have been interesting. I don’t think that was ever really an idea, just a name. That is to say, the Noldor were always of the same species as the other Elves, and always matched the same general description; it’s just that that particular clan of the Elves went by the name “gnomes” (or, more precisely, they went by a name that could be translated into English as “gnomes”). I don’t think Tolkien ever intended for the Noldor to be short, or bearded, or to wear Phrygian caps, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/29 "2015-01-12T16:58:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I don’t think that was ever really an idea, just a name. That is to say, the Noldor were always of the same species as the other Elves, and always matched the same general description; it’s just that that particular clan of the Elves went by the name “gnomes” (or, more precisely, they went by a name that could be translated into English as “gnomes”). I don’t think Tolkien ever intended for the Noldor to be short, or bearded, or to wear Phrygian caps, or whatever. But they did spend a lot of time hanging out on the Valar’s front lawn. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/30 "2015-01-12T17:31:32Z")
> [@Lasciel](#): > > just plain utterly misinformed like North Korean citizens. **Bored of the Rings** suggests the latter was the case for the evil narcs: > [@](#): > > All at once a large body of narcs burst into the hall from the passage the company had followed and charged at them, waving hammers and sickles. > > “Yalu, yalu” shouted their leader… > > … > > “Pyongyang panmunjom” shouted the narc chieftain. ---
**Author:** ![Coriolanus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coriolanus/32/18769_2.png) [@Coriolanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coriolanus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/31 "2015-01-12T18:51:14Z")
[QUOTE=Goblin King] Abominations, mutations, deviations…that all you’re gonna find down here [/QUOTE] Hilarious! Thanks GK. and now a poem (almost 100 years old!) The Professor wished he hadn’t published: [http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Goblin\_Feet](http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Goblin_Feet) I wish the unhappy little thing, representing all that I came (so soon after) to fervently dislike, could be buried for ever. —J.R.R. Tolkien [QUOTE=OttoDaFe] Was it Treebeard who said that just as Orcs are corrupted Elves… [/QUOTE] > [@John\_Mace](#): > > I thought Gandalf said that. I don’t recall anyone \*saying \*that, but it’s my recollection that Morgoth did not \*create \*anything, he only corrupted them. I’d reckon it was written in The Silmarillion. ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/32 "2015-01-12T21:50:38Z")
My recollection (don’t have the books handy, sorry) is that Morgoth and Sauron could not create anything original, only mockeries of other people’s creations. Treebeard’s line gave me the impression that the Enemy tried to create his own version of an Ent, and Trolls were the best he could manage. I don’t recall if the _Silmarillion_ explicitly stated whether Orcs were corrupted Elves, or Morgoth’s attempt at an original creation. I think Tolkien left some gray area in the matter, and I have read that, later in his life, he was on the verge of changing his mind an re-writing the Orcs’ origins. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/33 "2015-01-13T00:28:50Z")
Tolkien was always on the verge of changing his mind about everything in his works and re-writing them. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571/34 "2015-01-13T13:52:24Z")
If I remember correctly, Chris Tolkien mentioned – maybe in one of the HOME books – that he regretted including that comment in _the Silmarilion_ about the origin of Orcs. It seems to have been an interim theory of JRRT’s that he still hadn’t decided. Nonetheless, it has generated a _lot_ of speculation, discussion, and argument over the years. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/orcs-and-goblins-in-lotr/709571.md?page=1)