# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1981 "2011-04-16T08:52:15Z")
I bet Roy will win by kicking some sand in Thog’s face. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1982 "2011-04-16T10:02:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > So, I see three possible outcomes, here. > > 1. Roy beats Thog down, but is stopped from killing him by Elan. Elan’s intervention blows Roys cover, and Roy blows his top at Elan for ruining their plan to save a mass murderer. > > 2. Roy kills Thog, and Elan is horrified that Roy killed someone Elan considers a friend. Roy blows his top at Elan for getting upset over the death of a mass murderer. > > 3. All of the above: Elan blows their cover by trying to stop Roy, but Roy kills Thog anyway. _\_ Tarquin: _\_ “Ah ha! _Finally_ someone I can kill whose death will make you happy! Guards…” _\_ ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1983 "2011-04-16T10:43:08Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1984 "2011-04-16T10:56:11Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > 1. Roy beats Thog down, but is stopped from killing him by Elan. Elan’s intervention blows Roys cover, and Roy blows his top at Elan for ruining their plan to save a mass murderer. > > 2. Roy kills Thog, and Elan is horrified that Roy killed someone Elan considers a friend. Roy blows his top at Elan for getting upset over the death of a mass murderer. > > 3. All of the above: Elan blows their cover by trying to stop Roy, but Roy kills Thog anyway. 1. Nale springs his trap. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1985 "2011-04-16T14:39:36Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > A good thing, too. Xykon isn’t one of those disgusting biophiliacs. Tsukiko will kill her if she tries anything… ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1986 "2011-04-16T16:13:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > 1. Nale springs his trap. 1. Thog beats Roy, but Elan calls down to him not to kill Roy, and Thog obeys out of friendship for Not-Nale. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1987 "2011-04-16T16:55:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Thog isn’t a mass murderer because of the prisoners he killed in the arena; he’s a mass murderer because of the hundreds of innocent people he helped Elan kill in Cliffport. Don’t forget that. Thog is a complete and utter sociopath - a very stupid, very cheerful sociopath, but a sociopath nonetheless. “Saving” him is not an option. Thog is something else. He is the exact opposite of Roy. Roy is extremely Lawful Good. Thog is Chaotic Evil. Thog and Elan can relate, but Thog is everything Roy detests. Edit: Good point, Peter. Thog’s been killing people while Roy’s been dead. Thog may be a level up on our heroes now. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1988 "2011-04-16T17:02:17Z")
Unless the nemesis level-up mechanism works both ways. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1989 "2011-04-16T20:26:26Z")
Quoth **Miller** : > [@](#): > > I don’t see Roy trying for a conversion, here. He has no reason to think of Thog as anything except one of Nale’s vile minions. Elan, on the other hand, likes Thog from their time in prison together. Elan and Thog’s mini-adventure should serve as evidence that Thog _can_ do good, when he’s away from the bad influence of Nale and Sabine, and Elan’s had plenty of time by now to tell Roy all about that. And yes, Roy detests Big Dumb Fighters, but one of the things he detests about them is the inclination to think first of violence when solving problems. In short, Thog is redeemable, Roy knows it, and Roy is the type to value redemption where possible. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1990 "2011-04-16T20:30:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Elan and Thog’s mini-adventure should serve as evidence that Thog _can_ do good, when he’s away from the bad influence of Nale and Sabine, and Elan’s had plenty of time by now to tell Roy all about that. And yes, Roy detests Big Dumb Fighters, but one of the things he detests about them is the inclination to think first of violence when solving problems. In short, Thog is redeemable, Roy knows it, and Roy is the type to value redemption where possible. I’m sure Elan told Roy all about his adventures. But what are the odds Roy was listening when he did it? Also, what good deeds did Thog do when he was running around with Elan? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1991 "2011-04-16T20:34:04Z")
I don’t remember Thog doing any good with Elan - he just did what Elan told him to do. If Elan had told him to kill a bunch of innocent people, he would have done it just as happily. He can’t be saved because there’s essentially nothing there to save. Thog doesn’t have the mental capacity to be good. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1992 "2011-04-16T23:48:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > He can’t be saved because there’s essentially nothing there to save. Thog doesn’t have the mental capacity to be good. He doesn’t have the mental capacity to be evil either. He basically does whatever he’s told. He has, unfortunately, fallen under the command of Nale who uses him as a tool for evil purposes. If he worked for Roy, he could do good instead. He has shown capacity for kindness, though. He wants to save Nale when he thinks Nale is lost without a trail of breadcrumbs. When Nale kidnapped the blacksmith, Thog thinks he’s taking care of a puppy, and doesn’t understand he’s hurting a real person. If he were to increase his intelligence, and realise how he’s hurting innocent people, he’d stop the violence in an instant. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1993 "2011-04-17T00:17:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t remember Thog doing any good with Elan - he just did what Elan told him to do. If Elan had told him to kill a bunch of innocent people, he would have done it just as happily. In fact he did kill innocent people. I can’t find it, but he offhandedly kills a friendly female (a slyph or some such IIRC) in mid-sentence just out of sight of Elan. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1994 "2011-04-17T00:31:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In fact he did kill innocent people. I can’t find it, but he offhandedly kills a friendly female (a slyph or some such IIRC) in mid-sentence just out of sight of Elan. You’re probably thinking of [this strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0051.html), when Thog was acting on Nale’s plan. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1995 "2011-04-17T00:52:45Z")
Thog may technically be Chaotic Evil, but in the practical sense he’s Chaotic Has-The-Mind-Of-A-Five-Year-Old. He doesn’t know any better. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1996 "2011-04-17T01:18:05Z")
Thog’s approach to things seems to be to figure out who’s in charge and do whatever they say. Wouldn’t that make him technically lawful neutral? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1997 "2011-04-17T01:38:32Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Thog’s approach to things seems to be to figure out who’s in charge and do whatever they say. Wouldn’t that make him technically lawful neutral? I don’t think so - anyone who can change allegiances that quickly and easily isn’t really “lawful,” in my book. True neutral, maybe - he’s genuinely unconcerned with good or evil, law or chaos. He just goes whichever way the wind is blowing him at the time. But I’d still say neutral evil or chaotic evil. If you’re running around butchering innocent people by the bushel, you’re evil, full stop. Even if you’ve got a charmingly child-like demeanor while you do it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1998 "2011-04-17T02:13:33Z")
There’s also the matter that he _likes_ killing. “Yay! Resisting arrest is fun!”. And even Nale and Sabine have some fear of him, as evidenced by their worry about running out of ice cream to keep him (semi-)pacified. There’s no doubt that, as he is right now, he’s evil. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/1999 "2011-04-17T03:45:52Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Thog isn’t a mass murderer because of the prisoners he killed in the arena; he’s a mass murderer because of the hundreds of innocent people he helped Elan kill in Cliffport. Don’t tell me that Nale fooled _you_ with that lame frame-up! Actually, you’re even worse off than the Cliffport authorities; they only imprisoned Elan for that crime because they thought Elan was Nale, not because they actually thought Elan murdered anybody. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2000 "2011-04-17T04:17:27Z")
Chaotic Neutral? No thought for consequences, can be looking for puppies one minute and chopping someone in half the next… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=101)