# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 101
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2001 "2011-04-17T05:54:21Z")
“One may smile, and smile, and be a villain”. Thog revels in violence and is perfectly willing to kill innocents without remorse for the sheer joy of it. He’s Chaotic Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2002 "2011-04-17T06:02:02Z")
Exactly. Evil is as evil does. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2003 "2011-04-17T06:26:27Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > “One may smile, and smile, and be a villain”. :dubious: While it works, the English major in me can’t help but point out that, in context, that quote refers to the opposite situation–a Lawful Evil manipulator who keeps up a jolly public ‘face’ while secretly scheming. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2004 "2011-04-17T06:50:17Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Thog may technically be Chaotic Evil, but in the practical sense he’s Chaotic Has-The-Mind-Of-A-Five-Year-Old. He doesn’t know any better. Then he’s nothing more than a rabid dog that needs to be put down. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2005 "2011-04-17T14:46:05Z")
You thus advocate executing 5-year olds who don’t yet have a moral compass? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2006 "2011-04-17T15:28:13Z")
Those who go around killing people with axes, and who will never grow up? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2007 "2011-04-17T17:53:33Z")
Thog kills people because Nale and Sabine tell him to, and they never taught him that it’s wrong to go on a murder spree because you’re bored. The Linear Guild is for all intents and purposes Thog’s parental figures, and, like the other parents we’ve seen in OOTS, royally messed up. Thog just follows the lead of whoever the grownup in charge is. When he was looking for Nale with Elan, he didn’t kill anybody. Elan is relatively sane compared to his, well, relatives, and Thog went along with him. Reunited with Nale and Sabine, Thog reverted to Linear Guild morality and started hitting people. What I’m saying, really, is that if the order had Thog instead of Belkar\*, Roy would probably be able to set some brakes on him. (“Thog, see all those people? They have puppies at home, cute puppies, and if you kill them the puppies will be sad.”) I find myself agreeing with **Der Trihs** - Thog is more fundamentally Chaotic Neutral, or maybe Chaotic Easily Suggestible. He is whatever his companions are. \*I’ll admit, Thog _plus_ Belkar would be a bit trickier. Thog does have innate violent tendencies, and a single companion who encouraged those tendencies would have a stronger hold than Roy and his hypothetical puppies. Probably. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2008 "2011-04-17T18:08:35Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > What I’m saying, really, is that if the order had Thog instead of Belkar\*, Roy would probably be able to set some brakes on him. (“Thog, see all those people? They have puppies at home, cute puppies, and if you kill them the puppies will be sad.”) I find myself agreeing with **Der Trihs** - Thog is more fundamentally Chaotic Neutral, or maybe Chaotic Easily Suggestible. He is whatever his companions are. No, I don’t think so. I mean, the “Don’t make the puppies sad” argument would probably work on him, but that doesn’t make him not evil. It just means that he likes puppies and he’s easily tricked. But you’re not appealing to his moral sense. Just his love of puppies. He’d be just as eager to kill them and take the puppies for his own. Nale and Thog are, as was mentioned, the evil George and Lennie. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2009 "2011-04-17T18:49:50Z")
When they were searching for the runes, Thog killed unprompted, so I mark him as Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2010 "2011-04-17T20:40:26Z")
What all that boils down to is that Thog has reasons for being evil, and if you put yourself in his shoes, they’re understandable reasons. That doesn’t make him any less evil, though. Meanwhile, I’m still confused about _how_ Thog can be the Champion. I mean, [Tarquin knows Thog](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), and knows that he’s one of Nale’s cohorts. He should at least strongly suspect that if he has Thog, then Nale must be close at hand. And it’s not like Thog would be hard to question. So how does it come to pass that Thog is in the arena, and Nale is still (presumably) at large? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2011 "2011-04-17T20:56:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Meanwhile, I’m still confused about _how_ Thog can be the Champion. I mean, [Tarquin knows Thog](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), and knows that he’s one of Nale’s cohorts. He should at least strongly suspect that if he has Thog, then Nale must be close at hand. And it’s not like Thog would be hard to question. So how does it come to pass that Thog is in the arena, and Nale is still (presumably) at large? Either Tarquin counts on Nale showing up to rescue his buddy, the better to capture him ; or he’s just trolling Nale by killing his best henchman, knowing it’s not a big loss but it’s going to irritate him to no end anyway. Meantime, Thog entertains the masses. Bi-winning ! ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2011, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2012 "2011-04-17T21:55:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And it’s not like Thog would be hard to question. What could Thog possibly know? Nale’s secret hideout? His _plan?_ Please. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2013 "2011-04-18T01:21:49Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > When they were searching for the runes, Thog killed unprompted, so I mark him as Evil. Surely he was prompted beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2014 "2011-04-18T01:33:54Z")
> [@](#): > > What could Thog possibly know? Nale’s secret hideout? His plan? Please. Well, at least, where he last saw Nale. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2015 "2011-04-18T04:03:30Z")
Not really. Remember why Thog was gagged. Because he makes no damn sense and anyone short of Elan will go insane listening to him. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2016 "2011-04-18T17:31:43Z")
[And the Fight is ON!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0788.html) ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2017 "2011-04-18T17:39:20Z")
I think Rich must be reading this thread, or similar arguments about Thog elsewhere on the 'net. > [@Tarquin](#): > > It’s weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he’s lovable. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2018 "2011-04-18T17:43:25Z")
“It’s weird, no matter how many people he kills, the audience still thinks he’s lovable.” Little meta-comment on the readership there, I think… EDIT: Scooped, I see. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2019 "2011-04-18T17:53:04Z")
One free sneak attack with a presumably sharp sword and the battle isn’t over? Is this some kind of D&D thing? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2020 "2011-04-18T17:56:18Z")
Thog’s got HP up the wazoo. A single hit, even at max damage, isn’t going to bring him down. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=100) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=102)