# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 105
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2081 "2011-04-28T16:31:47Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No. Being transmuted by Stone to Flesh can make the victim die of shock (Fortitude save vs. DC15), but if they pass that, or if you use a different spell, you’re fine. > Not really. There are certainly spells that Zz’dtri might have prepared for just such an occasion, but most spells aren’t that good at smashing stone. A maximum level Cone of Cold, for example, would only deal 5 points of damage on an average roll. Wow, that’s totally different than how 2.0 dealt with it in the incarnations I’m familiar with (the Baldur’s Gate series, various PnP campaigns). One more reason to hate Beholders in that game… So, FtS is just another way to permanently incapacitate one foe, like Dominate Person or Hold Person, it’s just that FtS uses Fortitude as its save rather than Will? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2082 "2011-04-28T16:57:38Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > So, FtS is just another way to permanently incapacitate one foe, like Dominate Person or Hold Person, it’s just that FtS uses Fortitude as its save rather than Will? No. Both Dominate Person and Hold Person wear off on their own and are easier to dispel. Petrifying someone leaves them as a statue until someone changes them back. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2083 "2011-04-28T17:06:09Z")
> [@](#): > > (Surprised no one came up with an epileptic tree that Roy had been replaced with Sabine at some point…) I saw that somewhere in a thread over there, but I’m not going to go digging it up. And good catch on Elan possibly using Greater Dispel against Zz’dtri… There’s got to be some reason the Giant mentioned him learning it. > [@](#): > > Wow, that’s totally different than how 2.0 dealt with it in the incarnations I’m familiar with (the Baldur’s Gate series, various PnP campaigns). One more reason to hate Beholders in that game… So, FtS is just another way to permanently incapacitate one foe, like Dominate Person or Hold Person, it’s just that FtS uses Fortitude as its save rather than Will? The biggest difference is that now, Stone to Flesh isn’t the only spell to undo petrification any more. In fact, with Break Enchantment being both lower level and safer, there’s hardly even any reason for the Stone to Flesh spell to exist. Although technically, Break Enchantment also has a chance to fail, but if it does, then the victim just remains petrified (or under whatever other affliction you were trying to fix), not dead. And I’m not sure where folks are getting that Zz’dtri is a sorcerer. Back before the Linear Guild backstabbed the Order, Vaarsuvius was trying to trade spells with em, which would imply that e’s a wizard, same as V. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2084 "2011-04-28T17:10:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He also let his/her hair grow long - so Z got a haircut. Opposites! Not only that, but Z got exactly the same art upgrades that V got way back in book 2. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2085 "2011-04-28T18:01:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do crow familiars get a chance to use True Seeing in 3ed? I don’t think so, no. I mean, they can cast the spell as if they were their master if the latter has it prepared (and communicate what they see by telepathic link), but AFAIK familiars don’t get their own spell perks nor spell-like abilities. They’re just handy ways to deliver touch spells at range, to scout around if you don’t have a rogue in the party, and to buff the owner’s HPs (or was that last bit only in BG ?). ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2086 "2011-04-28T21:27:14Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The biggest difference is that now, Stone to Flesh isn’t the only spell to undo petrification any more. In fact, with Break Enchantment being both lower level and safer, there’s hardly even any reason for the Stone to Flesh spell to exist. It can be useful to make a particularly disgusting exit from a locked room, assuming the walls are masonry. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2087 "2011-04-29T02:07:35Z")
Sure, but if that’s _all_ you’re using it for, there are easier (and cleaner) ways to get the same effect. Used to be, a wizard might occasionally use it that way in a pinch, but the reason it was in his spellbook to begin with was in case someone had a close encounter with a cockatrice (or medusa, or gorgon, or beholder, or…). Well, that and the whole “reversible spell” thing, which they regrettably moved away from. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2088 "2011-04-29T03:00:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, but if that’s _all_ you’re using it for, there are easier (and cleaner) ways to get the same effect. Ah, but the cleaner ways to do it don’t simultaneously provide you with a fresh supply of meat. (Many of my Nethack characters have lived on boulder roasts for extended periods. :D) > [@Chronos](#): > > And I’m not sure where folks are getting that Zz’dtri is a sorcerer. Back before the Linear Guild backstabbed the Order, Vaarsuvius was trying to trade spells with em, which would imply that e’s a wizard, same as V. You are quite correct. I think it was the “evil opposite” thing that threw me–a sorcerer would be a reasonable “opposite” for a wizard. Beyond that, I was probably thinking of V’s fight with Samantha, since she specifically cited her extra spell slots as her big advantage–she could cast more spells than V could counterspell. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2089 "2011-04-29T05:25:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Sure, but if that’s _all_ you’re using it for, there are easier (and cleaner) ways to get the same effect. Yeah, but easier and cleaner doesn’t get you a jailhouse made out of prime cut sirloin, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2090 "2011-04-29T06:53:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And good catch on Elan possibly using Greater Dispel against Zz’dtri… There’s got to be some reason the Giant mentioned him learning it. Something else that just occurred to me about the possibility of Elan using Greater Dispel against Zz’dtri - unlike V’s spells, which are likely to be targeting the drow himself, and thus subject to the drow’s spell resistance, Dispel Magic targets the spell, not the caster - and as such isn’t subject to spell resistance. If V can distract Z long enough for Elan to reverse the Flesh to Stone spell, Elan can drop a dispel on Z’s Fly spell, and drop the wizard right in between him and Haley. I don’t care how many scimitars that wizard is carrying, if he’s flanked between a bard and a high level rogue, he’s going to take a serious hurting. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2091 "2011-05-05T05:06:10Z")
[790 is up](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html), and it’s only slightly less surprising than 789. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2092 "2011-05-05T05:13:44Z")
Fascinating. So the Linear Guild is working with the Trio. But then… why are they attacking V? They need V alive. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2093 "2011-05-05T05:22:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Fascinating. > > So the Linear Guild is working with the Trio. But then… why are they attacking V? They need V alive. We knew the Trio had plans for the Linear Guild. Qarr is obviously their inside man (assuming Sabine wasn’t already working both sides). As for attacking V, they haven’t killed him. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2094 "2011-05-05T05:23:14Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Fascinating. > > So the Linear Guild is working with the Trio. But then… why are they attacking V? They need V alive. They aren’t precisely “working with” the Three Fiends; they are [pawns](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0668.html). Only Sabine and Qarr (the Imp) even know about the Three, much less what they want. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2095 "2011-05-05T06:58:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We knew the Trio had plans for the Linear Guild. Qarr is obviously their inside man (assuming Sabine wasn’t already working both sides). > > As for attacking V, they haven’t killed him. Does anyone think they are going to claim their ‘mileage’ on V’s soul now? Feel it’s too early for that now, but you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2096 "2011-05-05T07:13:50Z")
Belkar is going to be so mad Yukyuk gets to unleash the fury 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 10:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2097 "2011-05-05T10:11:08Z")
I wonder what Yukyuk’s skull will be turned into? Perhaps a toy for Mr. Scruffy? ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2098 "2011-05-05T12:12:31Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I wonder what Yukyuk’s skull will be turned into? Perhaps a toy for Mr. Scruffy? A litterbox. I’d love to see what Mr. Scruffy does to Yukyuk’s mount. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2099 "2011-05-05T12:44:45Z")
Right, Mr. Scruffy! It’ll be interesting to see his contribution to this fight. I’m also interested to see if Hilgya turns up as well, and if she shows up to defend Durkon or to attack him out of anger at his sending her away before. And where is Nale and who is Sabine masquerading as this time? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2100 "2011-05-05T16:56:44Z")
An interesting side point: Vaarsuvius actually knows what spells Durkon prepares on any given day. That indicates a level of teamwork e wouldn’t have engaged in, at the beginning of the comic. Although I’m obviously a bit disappointed that Elan didn’t use Song of Freedom. I’m beginning to think I’m the only person who ever read that line in the bard description. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=104) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=106)