# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 128
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2542 "2011-09-16T15:47:43Z")
Clerics can’t turn outsiders any more, unless they have special feats or prestige classes or something for that. But he can, as mentioned, use spells like Banishment, Dismissal, or Holy Word, all of which should be nicely effective versus Sabine (especially Holy Word-- It’d give her a save at -4 or be banished, and even if she makes that, she’d still be deafened, and possibly blinded or paralyzed). ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2543 "2011-09-16T19:29:49Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I wonder what’s in Haley’s left hand? A potion? Whatever it is, it was also depicted in her hand in #789. I don’t think it’s a bag of holding, since she dropped one that the Kobold found later. In any case, she appears to not have her bow, so she may not be much immediate help to Elan or Durkon. I went back to strip 789, to see. At the moment she was attacked, she was just removing a potion from the Bag of Holding. That potion was enstoned (errr, rockificated) along with her, as was the bow that she wore over her shoulder. Also, if you look at the panel where she lands on the lawyers, the bald one is getting the bottom of the bow in his ear. Getting arrows could be a problem. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2544 "2011-09-16T21:49:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I went back to strip 789, to see. At the moment she was attacked, she was just removing a potion from the Bag of Holding. That potion was enstoned (errr, rockificated) along with her, as was the bow that she wore over her shoulder. Also, if you look at the panel where she lands on the lawyers, the bald one is getting the bottom of the bow in his ear. Well son of a gun. She does have a bow. Nice catch! > [@](#): > > Getting arrows could be a problem. Yeah, but she has [at least seven](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html) more Bags of Holding, presumably one has arrows. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2011, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2545 "2011-09-16T22:47:01Z")
She presumably also has at least one quiver that she keeps outside of the bags. You can’t draw arrows quickly from a Bag of Holding like you can from a quiver. We just can’t see the quiver because of the art style, same as we can’t see a lot of other equipment when it’s not being used. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2546 "2011-09-17T02:33:24Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Clerics can’t turn outsiders any more, unless they have special feats or prestige classes or something for that. But he can, as mentioned, use spells like Banishment, Dismissal, or Holy Word, all of which should be nicely effective versus Sabine (especially Holy Word-- It’d give her a save at -4 or be banished, and even if she makes that, she’d still be deafened, and possibly blinded or paralyzed). Do we have any conjecture what Durkon’s level is and what spells he has that are of this sort? He usually hasn’t done anything as effective as Holy Word, and seems to be mostly the healer of the team. The most cool-ass stuff I remember him doing was Weather Control, when he sonically destroyed a bunch of animated trees, and Thor’s Might (or The Giant Dwarf trick) which is a staple of his. Plus resurrecting Roy. Also maybe cutting a giant octopus tentacle with a hammer, but that wasn’t magical. I don’t recall him _ever_ directly engaging Sabine, or any outsider, but my memory is often imperfect. Has he? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2547 "2011-09-17T03:53:10Z")
The evidence seems to suggest that he’s 15th level, which would give him access to 8th-level spells. Holy Word is the highest-level spell I mentioned, and it’s only 7th (the same level as Resurrection). And all of the spells I mentioned are on the general cleric list (not just domains), and all clerics have access to all of the spells on the class list. So he _can_ cast all of them. The relevant question is whether he’s prepared any of them today, but we really have very little idea of what spells he generally prepares, since (as you note) he mostly ends up using his spells for healing. Good clerics can spontaneously convert any of their prepared spells to cure spells, so there’s very little reason for a good cleric to ever actually prepare cure spells: They can prepare a bunch of specialized spells just in case the right situation comes up to use them, and if it doesn’t, then they just use those spell slots for healing. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2011, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2548 "2011-09-17T05:28:47Z")
Thanks, that’s pretty good info for a non-gamer person such as myself. I guess we’ll see shortly what spells Durkon has prepared today, right? Thanks for the cleric-fication , **Chronos**! ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2549 "2011-09-19T22:15:02Z")
[#806](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) showed up in my RSS feed and on the site, but the image isn’t loading for me just yet. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2550 "2011-09-19T22:16:33Z")
Yeah, everyone else is having the same problem. The forum thread is full of complaints about it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2551 "2011-09-19T22:48:36Z")
Heh. “Cleric’s Feather Fall”. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2552 "2011-09-19T22:52:37Z")
Yeah, I got it no problem. And this comic is going to provide a lot of fodder for the Class and Level Geekery thread over there. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2553 "2011-09-19T23:38:46Z")
Good prediction on up-thread on Durkon trying to (well, thinking about) casting Holy Word on Sabine. What does Enervation do? If it drains levels, doesn’t that fall under the level drain rule (also mentioned upthread) where the levels aren’t actually gone until the day ends and that person hadn’t gotten healed? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2554 "2011-09-20T02:46:30Z")
And BTW: “Like ‘ditch’ or ‘trench’? Or ‘bagel’?” Huh? That one went right past me. Bagels are holey, but trenches and ditches? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2555 "2011-09-20T03:11:34Z")
They’re both holes in the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2556 "2011-09-20T03:39:57Z")
> [@](#): > > What does Enervation do? If it drains levels, doesn’t that fall under the level drain rule (also mentioned upthread) where the levels aren’t actually gone until the day ends and that person hadn’t gotten healed? Basically the same effect, except that the negative levels inflicted by Enervation only last a few hours, not long enough to cause permanent effects. It’s still pretty nasty for that duration, though. And it causes 1d4 negative levels, not just 1 at a time like Sabine’s attack. Energy Drain, which we’ve seen Xykon use a few times, is the 9th-level version, which does 2d4 negative levels, and lasts for the full 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2557 "2011-09-20T04:14:25Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Basically the same effect, except that the negative levels inflicted by Enervation only last a few hours, not long enough to cause permanent effects. It’s still pretty nasty for that duration, though. And it causes 1d4 negative levels, not just 1 at a time like Sabine’s attack. Energy Drain, which we’ve seen Xykon use a few times, is the 9th-level version, which does 2d4 negative levels, and lasts for the full 24 hours. Aha, thank you! So what might Mass Death Ward do? Edit: nm, I see what the non-Mass version would do [here](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm). I can see where that spell would be handy around Xykon. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2558 "2011-09-20T04:17:12Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > They’re both holes in the ground. Oh, doy! My IQ can’t comprehend Elan’s lesser one. Yeah, that’s it. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2559 "2011-09-20T05:12:29Z")
Is there some reason Nale is using a skull-wand to cast Enervation? Is it like a scroll, a one-time spell? Or a device that lets him cast higher level spells? Or does Nale just like carrying around a stick with a mini-skull to cast with? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2560 "2011-09-20T05:26:09Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Is there some reason Nale is using a skull-wand to cast Enervation? Is it like a scroll, a one-time spell? Or a device that lets him cast higher level spells? Or does Nale just like carrying around a stick with a mini-skull to cast with? Wands store multiple uses of a single spell. Normally, in order to use a wand, the spell has to be on the caster’s class spell list, although it doesn’t necessarily have to be a spell they know or are powerful enough to cast yet. For example, a first level wizard isn’t high enough level to cast fireball, but since fireball is on the wizard spell list, a first level wizard could use a wand of fireballs. However, wizards can’t cast cure light wounds, which is a first level cleric spell. So a wizard would not be able to use a wand of cure light wounds. There are ways around this, of course, the most common being the skill Use Magic Device, which allows someone to use a wand (or scroll, or similar) even if the item isn’t something they’d normally be able to use. However, this requires a skill check every time they try to use the item. In this case, Enervation is a sorcerer spell, so Nale can use that wand with impunity. At least, until it runs out of charges. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2011, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2561 "2011-09-20T07:12:28Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Aha, thank you! > > So what might Mass Death Ward do? > > Edit: nm, I see what the non-Mass version would do [here](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/deathWard.htm). I can see where that spell would be handy around Xykon. Ahhh I see…so what’s the punchline about, where Thor doesn’t know what he’s talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=127) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=129)