# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 135
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2011, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2682 "2011-10-21T21:07:49Z")
Well, plus Elan is Chaotic Good, so Nale would be Lawful Evil. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2683 "2011-10-22T01:36:32Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2684 "2011-10-24T14:35:20Z")
[And Yet, the Canned Meat Merchant Still Gets Through](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html) Number 812 is up up and away. And I guess there can be upwards of 23 Elan siblings… ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2685 "2011-10-24T14:39:28Z")
only if some share alignments! ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2686 "2011-10-24T14:52:11Z")
> [@Enderw24](#): > > [And Yet, the Canned Meat Merchant Still Gets Through](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0812.html) > > Number 812 is up up and away. > > And I guess there can be upwards of 23 Elan siblings… Tarquin must have had a very busy decade 20-some years ago… ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2687 "2011-10-24T15:25:12Z")
I’m guessing that we’ve [already seen](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0226.html)one unknown half brother to Elan & Nale. Took me a while to work out what the title meant. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2688 "2011-10-24T16:17:01Z")
This question is a bit late, but I didn’t manage to get here for several days: Just to clarify, Harm isn’t an Evil cleric spell? Because as far as I can remember, the only other person I’ve seen use it is Redcloak. But the OOTS forum is not full of people saying “Toldja Malack is Evil!” every five posts, so I’m guessing Harm is either a general cleric spell, or a non-Good spell. (For the record, I still think that Malack is Lawful Neutral). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2689 "2011-10-24T16:38:00Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Just to clarify, Harm isn’t an Evil cleric spell? No. Evil clerics can cast Heal, and Good clerics can cast Harm. Even if it was an [Evil] spell, it’s only _opposing_ alignments that are unavailable to a divine spellcaster - a Lawful Neutral cleric could cast both [Good] and [Evil] spells, but not [Chaotic] spells. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2690 "2011-10-24T16:58:34Z")
Harm doesn’t appear to have the [Evil] tag, and is not limited to Evil spellcasters: [Harm in the SRD](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2691 "2011-10-24T17:02:07Z")
It’s a negative-energy spell from the Necromancy school, and Neutral-who-channel-negative or Evil clerics can get it “free” the same way good clerics would get a Heal, but it’s not evil _per se_ in the way that, say, Animate Dead is. Certainly a good cleric could prepare it, it’s one of the very few useable blasts they get. That being said, of \*course \*Malack is evil. Just because he’s civil doesn’t mean he’s not evil. He dresses all in black ; works for an obviously evil Red Dragon and her even more obviously evil henchman/handler in their thoroughly evil kingdom ; is not only in on Tarquin’s evil plans and methods but part of them (and used to them since both of them date back to their adventuring days) ; and last but not least he’s a priest of [Nergal, god of Death and Destruction](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html) (also Babylonian god of war, destruction and pestilence). His Macebook page also tells us he’s buddy with a paladin of Marduk (another not nice Babylonian deity) and a priest of Tiamat (guess which side of the Alignment Table she bats for ?). Oh, and in the Forgotten Realms setting, [Nergal](http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Nergal_%28deity%29) was a Neutral Evil archdevil/god of death the clergy of which practiced human sacrifice. So you tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2692 "2011-10-24T17:32:56Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > It’s a negative-energy spell from the Necromancy school, and Neutral-who-channel-negative or Evil clerics can get it “free” the same way good clerics would get a Heal, but it’s not evil _per se_ in the way that, say, Animate Dead is. Certainly a good cleric could prepare it, it’s one of the very few useable blasts they get. Eh? No time to go look it up now, but I thought it was only the Cure/Cause [adjective] Wounds spells that Clerics got to spontaneously swap? Heal & Harm shouldn’t fall into that group. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2693 "2011-10-24T17:40:44Z")
Does anyone else ever find themselves doing something to the tune of Elan’s little bard tune? “Type, Type, Type, Type the stupid staff report.” “Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean the dirty kitchen floor.” ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2694 "2011-10-24T17:53:02Z")
Well, _NOW_ I’m going to… Thanks a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2695 "2011-10-24T17:55:15Z")
Oh no! A captcha! ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2696 "2011-10-24T17:56:56Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Does anyone else ever find themselves doing something to the tune of Elan’s little bard tune? “Type, Type, Type, Type the stupid staff report.” “Clean, Clean, Clean, Clean the dirty kitchen floor.” Waste, waste, waste, waste time on the Dope when I should be brushing up on the quadratic equation to help my son study for his test tomorrow. Nope. Just you. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2697 "2011-10-24T18:07:57Z")
As for Malack being evil…in the same way that Lawful good doesn’t equal stupid, Lawful/Neutral evil doesn’t necessarily equal discourteous/unsociable. We’ve already seen that Tarquin, who is DEFINITELY Lawful evil, is capable of exquisite courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2698 "2011-10-24T18:57:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > His Macebook page also tells us he’s buddy with a paladin of Marduk (another not nice Babylonian deity) and a priest of Tiamat (guess which side of the Alignment Table she bats for ?). I agree that Malack is almost certainly evil - he’s an albino, after all - but Marduk is the chief god of the Babylonian pantheon, and eternal foe of the dragon Tiamat. While most bronze age deities wouldn’t be considered particularly benevolent by modern standards, in Babylonian culture (and D&D source materials based on that culture) he’s generally considered to be a good guy. Note, also, that the Macebook friend is a paladin of Marduk, and OoTS is operating under 3.5 rules, which require paladins to be lawful good. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2699 "2011-10-24T19:06:27Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Eh? No time to go look it up now, but I thought it was only the Cure/Cause [adjective] Wounds spells that Clerics got to spontaneously swap? Heal & Harm shouldn’t fall into that group. Huh. It appears you’re right. Well that’s a shame and it sucks to be them then, because Mass Cure Moderate sucks quite thoroughly. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2700 "2011-10-24T19:39:30Z")
On the other hand, if Malack had used a quickened mass inflict instead of the single-target one he had, he wouldn’t have had to swing at Nale, and so wouldn’t have missed, and would have killed him. The mass cures are also handy when fighting undead, where you can top off your party and blast a bunch of zombies at the same time. And Malack has already made the point that clerics of death aren’t necessarily evil, and if anything should tend towards neutrality. Which doesn’t say anything at all about his own alignment, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2011, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2701 "2011-10-24T22:36:24Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] On the other hand, if Malack had used a quickened mass inflict instead of the single-target one he had, he wouldn’t have had to swing at Nale, and so wouldn’t have missed, and would have killed him. [/QUOTE] I doubt Malack has too many 10th level spell slots though 😉 > [@](#): > > The mass cures are also handy when fighting undead, where you can top off your party and blast a bunch of zombies at the same time. The Mass part of Mass Cure Moderate is fine (if pretty situational). It’s just that Mass Cure Light does the same job for cheaper: until you’re level 26+ there’s only 1d8 of difference between the two. And 1 DC to save if you’re using it offensively I suppose, but then that won’t really matter when used on lowbie undeads while the more dangerous and save-y ones won’t much care about such a weak blast either way. > [@](#): > > And Malack has already made the point that clerics of death aren’t necessarily evil, and if anything should tend towards neutrality. He does have a point regarding death gods. The Death domain is not necessarily Evil - Kelemvor in the Forgotten Realms is LN, Pharasma in Golarion is TN. Forgotten Realms Halflings even have an[LG god of death](http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Urogalan), however the fuck that works. The Destruction domain isn’t automatically Evil either - both of those settings also have minor CN gods of impulsive warfare and generally fucking shit up for fun rather than out of outright malice. Death AND Destruction together though ? Yeaaah that’s bad news and screams Evil, since pretty much the only way you’re getting both of them in your portfolio is if your stated purpose is “I’d like to bring about the destruction of all life pl0x, kthxbye”. I’d be happy to hear about any counter-example though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=134) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=136)