# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 142
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2822 "2011-12-11T08:30:53Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Nale doesn’t look like he’s in any better shape than when we last saw him. Given that he was on the wrong end of a Harm spell last time does that mean he still only has 1HP? That’s 2e. In d20 [Harm](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/harm.htm) does 10 HP damage per level. Presumably Nale successfully saved for half damage. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2823 "2011-12-11T17:45:30Z")
In 3rd edition, it still leaves you with at least one HP, and those wound marks are not those of someone who’s successfully saved. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2824 "2011-12-11T19:37:23Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > I do wonder, though, why he didn’t grab ahold of Nale before he tipped his hand (or rather, finger). Because he is his son’s father. And by that I mean he’s a raving egomaniac who puts results behind gloating and demeaning someone to his (invisible) face. ETA: or possibly because he is his other son’s father, and theatrics are where it’s at 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2825 "2011-12-11T20:09:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In 3rd edition, it still leaves you with at least one HP, As per the SRD > [@](#): > > and those wound marks are not those of someone who’s successfully saved. You could argue it either way. With all those levels of Sorceror, Nale probably doesn’t have too many HP to start with. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2826 "2011-12-12T14:59:33Z")
[820 is up](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html). ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2827 "2011-12-12T15:01:54Z")
I could get used to this frequency of update… Wonder if Tarquin will join the race or join in to thwart Xykon ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2828 "2011-12-12T15:54:53Z")
So Nale had more than one hitpoint left, to survive the dagger throw. Tarquin is getting more awesome by the minute. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2829 "2011-12-12T16:34:16Z")
Oh. Oh shit. Now Tarquin definitely knows everything there is to know about the Snarl, and truth be told he’s a darn sight more threatening than Xykon. Xykon might be powerful, but he and Redcloak are morons when all is said and done. Tarquin ? Smart, powerful, creative… and incidentally leader of a full band of adventurers no doubt masters of all sorts of careers. Order of the Stick, pose as a team because shit just got real. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2830 "2011-12-12T16:56:10Z")
Redcloak’s no moron. Xykon’s not as dumb as he acts either, but Redcloak was the team brain from back when Xykon was alive (and geniunely dumb). Another thought- Nale seems suprised that Tarquin knows about Windy Canyon, etc. Since Tarquin was just discussing that with the Order just before he sent them off, that indicates that Nale wasn’t there on the balcony, and that Tarquin only saw him when he came inside. So Tarquin may not have deliberately sent the Order on a wild goose chase, after all. Your thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2831 "2011-12-12T17:27:07Z")
Too many wheels within wheels there for my poor brain, dude. But fwiw, I don’t think Malack is going to be whole-heartedly on Tarquin’s side from this point on. So now when the rubber hits the road, Tarquin better watch his back (same way Xykon needs to watch his spine wrt Redcloak). ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2832 "2011-12-12T18:10:02Z")
I don’t see how Nale survives after he explains about Gates, the Snarl and Xykon. Once he’s given up that information, he’s no longer of use to Tarquin, so Malak gets to smite him. ETA: I have no doubt Nale will survive past this, or that if he’s killed that Sabine will find some way to later resurrect him. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2833 "2011-12-12T21:17:08Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > So Tarquin may not have deliberately sent the Order on a wild goose chase, after all. > > Your thoughts? I’m not seeing it. Nale appears to recognize the name of Windy Canyon as legitimate. And Tarquin was just saying how it was in his best interest for the Order to succeed. He’s definitely manipulating them but it appears he sent them in the right direction. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2834 "2011-12-12T21:52:08Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Too many wheels within wheels there for my poor brain, dude. But fwiw, I don’t think Malack is going to be whole-heartedly on Tarquin’s side from this point on. > > So now when the rubber hits the road, Tarquin better watch his back (same way Xykon needs to watch his spine wrt Redcloak). Dunno if you’ve read Start of Darkness, but there is no way in hell that Redcloak will ever betray Xykon. And it wouldn’t matter if he did. Also, man, the Giant is really good at writing villains. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2835 "2011-12-12T22:53:57Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > Dunno if you’ve read Start of Darkness, but there is no way in hell that Redcloak will ever betray Xykon. Actually … [spoiler] There’s a definite Checkhov’s Gun set up that implies Redcloak WILL turn against Xykon at some time. Hence the command Xykon gave to MITD. The thing that Redcloak will never do is abandon The Plan. [/spoiler] ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 12, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2836 "2011-12-12T23:29:16Z")
The fact that I’ve read _Start of Darkness_ is precisely why I think that Redcloak _will_ turn on Xykon. And honestly, if Redcloak gets the drop on Xykon, he’d probably win. Start off with an Energy Immunity (Lightning), Resist Energy (Fire), and Death Ward on himself, and there’s almost nothing Xykon can do to him, and then a Heal and a Disintegrate stand an excellent chance of finishing Xykon off. I expect that, if it ever comes to the point where they’re casting the Gate ritual, Redcloak will already have all those spells prepared, and the buffs cast, beforehand, with the express intention of destroying Xykon immediately after. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2837 "2011-12-13T00:17:54Z")
I agree. Redcloak didn’t sacrifice his brother in service to Xykon. He sacrificed him in service to the Plan. And the Plan is to use Xykon to gain control of the Gates and then betray him. The question is does Xykon realize this? He’s supposedly oblivious and thinks he’s broken Redcloak. But his instructions to the MITD indicate that Xykon may have the same plan as Redcloak - use Redcloak to gain control of the Gates and then betray him once it’s done. And that raises the question of why Xykon wants to control the Gates. Redcloak originally told him there was massive amounts of power to be gained from the Gates. But we’ve seen that’s a lie. The only thing you get from controlling the Gates is the threat of destroying reality. Redcloak wants to use this threat in order to force the Gods to make a deal with him. If Xykon is seeking this, what’s his angle? Is he planning on threatening the Gods? Or does he really want to destroy reality? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2838 "2011-12-13T00:30:27Z")
Xykon has said before that he doesn’t want to destroy reality. He likes reality. He’d like to rule it one day. Well he said those things about the world, not reality; but it’s not a difficult extrapolation. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2839 "2011-12-13T00:31:34Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The fact that I’ve read _Start of Darkness_ is precisely why I think that Redcloak _will_ turn on Xykon. And honestly, if Redcloak gets the drop on Xykon, he’d probably win. Start off with an Energy Immunity (Lightning), Resist Energy (Fire), and Death Ward on himself, and there’s almost nothing Xykon can do to him How about choking the shit out of him and/or throwing large bits of masonry around ? You know, how he managed to beat the shit out of Ascended V ? For all his clerical mojo, Red is still a lowly gob’ while Xykon is a badass undead monstrosity. And he sure as hell isn’t as powerful as V in all his demon-fueled glory was when it comes to sheer mojo. That being said, and you heard it here first, when comes the time of Redcloak’s inevitable betrayal, I’m pretty convinced the OOTS will be in the room and give him a hand. Burlew is big on redemption themes. > [@](#): > > And that raises the question of why Xykon wants to control the Gates. Redcloak originally told him there was massive amounts of power to be gained from the Gates. But we’ve seen that’s a lie. The only thing you get from controlling the Gates is the threat of destroying reality. Redcloak wants to use this threat in order to force the Gods to make a deal with him. If Xykon is seeking this, what’s his angle? Is he planning on threatening the Gods? Or does he really want to destroy reality? Pretty sure he just wants to use the threat of destroying reality to lord over the entire world. He’s a simple guy that way. Or maybe he plans on strongarming the gods into letting him ascend to godhood himself ? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2840 "2011-12-13T01:00:17Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Xykon has said before that he doesn’t want to destroy reality. He likes reality. He’d like to rule it one day. > > Well he said those things about the world, not reality; but it’s not a difficult extrapolation. Sure, he said that. But what with the genocide and everything, I wouldn’t put a little fibbing past him. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2841 "2011-12-13T07:13:11Z")
> [@](#): > > How about choking the shit out of him and/or throwing large bits of masonry around ? You know, how he managed to beat the shit out of Ascended V ? For all his clerical mojo, Red is still a lowly gob’ while Xykon is a badass undead monstrosity. And he sure as hell isn’t as powerful as V in all his demon-fueled glory was when it comes to sheer mojo. Redcloak isn’t as powerful as V was, but he knows how to use his power better, which was another big theme of the X-V fight. He knows what he can do, and how, and what and how Xykon can do. Plus, the clerical spell list (especially with the Destruction domain) is particularly well-suited to dealing with Xykon and his preferred style, much better than the wizard list is. Yeah, Xykon could do some damage just via his physical strength, but not enough, quick enough, to put down Redcloak in the few rounds he’d have available. All that said, it is, in fact, unlikely that Redcloak and Xykon will end up going one-on-one. The Order, Tsukiko, and Monster-San are all likely to be present, as well as possibly one or more Scribbler, the IFCC, the Linear Guild, or Tarquin, and who knows how all of that would shake out. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=141) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=143)