# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 143
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2842 "2011-12-13T14:39:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Redcloak isn’t as powerful as V was, but he knows how to use his power better, which was another big theme of the X-V fight. He knows what he can do, and how, and what and how Xykon can do. Plus, the clerical spell list (especially with the Destruction domain) is particularly well-suited to dealing with Xykon and his preferred style, much better than the wizard list is. Yeah, Xykon could do some damage just via his physical strength, but not enough, quick enough, to put down Redcloak in the few rounds he’d have available. True, but Xykon has one thing Reddie doesn’t (at least as far as I can remember): metamagic. For each Destruction Fail Eye can sling, Xykon can throw a couple of quickened Fingers of Death his way. Or quickened empowered fireballs, since clerics have crummy Ref. saves and 30d6 damage smarts a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2843 "2011-12-13T15:19:02Z")
I think a lot of people here are underestimating Xykon. He may act stupid, he may actually \*be \*stupid, but if he is, it’s a very special type of stupid that looks suspiciously like genius. No matter what he throws at him, Redcloak doesn’t stand a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2844 "2011-12-13T18:29:12Z")
> [@](#): > > True, but Xykon has one thing Reddie doesn’t (at least as far as I can remember): metamagic. For each Destruction Fail Eye can sling, Xykon can throw a couple of quickened Fingers of Death his way. Or quickened empowered fireballs, since clerics have crummy Ref. saves and 30d6 damage smarts a bit. First of all, sorcerers can’t easily quicken spells. Second, did you see the buffs I was assuming Redcloak would have up? Finger of Death would do nothing, and empowered fireball (which does 15d6, not 30d6) or Meteor Swarm would do very little, even on a failed save. Third, Redcloak [does have at least one metamagic feat](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), and a relevant one if he’s using buffs. Fourth, don’t forget that Redcloak is wearing a major artifact, which is known to have some sort of protective properties. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2845 "2011-12-13T20:26:25Z")
Resist energy (Fire) would prevent, 30 points per attack. Assuming a quickened empowered fireball, we’re talking 52 points of damage on average (15\*3+7.5)–22 points of damage per round. If Redcloak saves, we’re talking zero damage. Figure he’ll save about 25% of the time (probably lowballing it–Redcloak would have his saves buffed pretty hard for such a battle). 22 points of damage is nothing to a cleric: to counter this damage, Redcloak could cast a quickened Cure Serious Wounds (8th level) to cure an average of 28 points every couple of rounds. Or a single heal every sixth or seventh round. I do think that Redcloak would win, except for one thing: Xykon might be an idiot, but when it comes to treachery, he’s the king. Do you guys remember that Mordenkainen’s Disjunction scroll he bought 130 strips ago? Neither do I, and definitely neither does Redcloak, because Xykon’s never mentioned it to anybody. He’s been saving it for this eventuality. Round 1: Disjunction. Hope Redcloak’s red cloak survives, because he doesn’t want to make that nasty save. Quickened fireball. Round 2: Energy drain energy drain energy drain. Unless Redcloak is prepared for Xykon’s nasty anti-treachery-treachery with some anti-treachery-treachery-treachery of his own (“That scroll? Gosh, I had one of the minions bring it to me yesterday, and guess what? I prepared explosive runes yesterday!”), I think he’d be toast in such an encounter. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2846 "2011-12-13T20:59:44Z")
Actually, Xykon has an epic dispelling spell of some sort, that he used in his fight vs. V. But I have a hard time believing that he’d use that on a target wearing an artifact: No matter how good the odds are, I can’t see Xykon ever taking the risk of permanently losing his spellcasting. Even if he does, though, that’s a round he’s spending doing nothing but taking down Redcloak’s defenses, without actually hurting him directly. And Redcloak could just respond with a Word of Recall down to his sanctuary in the basement, re-cast his buffs, and come back up, since Xykon probably doesn’t get more than one or maybe two epic spells a day. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 13, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2847 "2011-12-13T22:06:52Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Actually, Xykon has an epic dispelling spell of some sort, that he used in his fight vs. V. But I have a hard time believing that he’d use that on a target wearing an artifact: No matter how good the odds are, I can’t see Xykon ever taking the risk of permanently losing his spellcasting. He wouldn’t. Mord’s Disjunction carries that risk, but normal dispels just suppress magic items, not destroy them. And epic level magic, being epic level magic, follows its own rules. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2848 "2011-12-14T01:13:02Z")
I’ll predict that Redcloak will set things up so that someone else finishes Xykon off during the Final Battle (however that plays out), and he destroys the phylactery himself. That seems like a pretty sweet “screw you, Xykon” finish for Redcloak’s plans. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2849 "2011-12-14T01:38:09Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > and empowered fireball (which does 15d6, not 30d6) I was assuming one quickened empowered fireball, then a regular old empowered fireball for 2\*15d6 per round. I’m pretty sure we’ve seen Xykon quicken stuff before (though I’m not about to trawl months of archives to find out. Even my OCD has limits :)). That’s an average of 105 points of damage, which is nothing to sneeze at. Even with resist energy, that’s still what, 50 points of damage per turn ? At a much longer range than Destruction (which he’s going to have, since wizards fly better than clerics) ? Sure, there’s always the Cleric Feather Fall to fall back on, but Xykon has more boom slots than Red has heal slots, and as has already been said once both are out of fizzbang it’s Xykon’s show so… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2850 "2011-12-14T01:44:03Z")
Hm, I had thought I remembered the [Dispell seed for epic spells](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/dispel.htm) working like Disjunction, but apparently I was mistaken. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2851 "2011-12-14T18:03:32Z")
[821](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) is up. Tarquin truly is a magnificent bastard. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2852 "2011-12-14T20:11:06Z")
Dunh dunh DUNH!!! ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2853 "2011-12-14T20:28:11Z")
Wait- so neither of them killed Penelope? The mystery deepens… Wait, so whose side is Tarquin on, anyway? Besides “Tarquins’s side”, I mean. ---
**Author:** ![Hal\_Briston](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a9a28c/32.png) [@Hal\_Briston](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hal_Briston)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2854 "2011-12-14T20:45:09Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Wait- so neither of them killed Penelope? That was all Malack. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2855 "2011-12-14T21:14:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Wait, so whose side is Tarquin on, anyway? Besides “Tarquins’s side”, I mean. I think that’s about it. Tarquin will work with other beings, but in the end, he’s only ever working for his own side. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2856 "2011-12-14T21:23:11Z")
Which, honestly, makes him someone you can deal with regardless of your alignment. He’s predictable and rational within that. Interesting villain. Interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2857 "2011-12-14T23:09:47Z")
“Sabine! It’s been too long. You’re looking lovely.” “That’s a meaningless compliment to a shapechanger, Tarquin.” “Yes, I know.” Great line. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2858 "2011-12-14T23:18:23Z")
The problem is, by stating his plan out loud - and laughing about it - he’s guaranteed its failure. He might as well have said “Nothing can stop us now!”. Frankly, I’m disappointed in him. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2859 "2011-12-15T00:05:10Z")
> [@Hal\_Briston](#): > > That was all Malack. Or … maybe the Draketooths (Draketeeth?) picked up on the scrying and killed her so as to stay hidden? ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2011, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2860 "2011-12-15T00:07:51Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > The problem is, by stating his plan out loud - and laughing about it - he’s guaranteed its failure. He might as well have said “Nothing can stop us now!”. Frankly, I’m disappointed in him. Based on this and similar-themed comments on the GitP forums, I’m suspecting he’s winding Nale up, too. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2861 "2011-12-16T06:46:10Z")
Is it bad luck to comment that Berlew’s update rate is pretty awesome right now? If I were to maybe do so, will the comic not update for like a year? Not that I was going to do so. Not me. Nope. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=142) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=144)