# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 147
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2922 "2011-12-30T15:35:00Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To quote [Burlew himself](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12448939&postcount=33) on the OOTS forum: KOALINTH! That’s what I was trying to remember! I really should read the GITP forums… ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2923 "2011-12-30T15:38:43Z")
I forget. Why is the snarl unraveling (or whatever) over azure city? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2924 "2011-12-30T16:19:42Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I forget. Why is the snarl unraveling (or whatever) over azure city? Because Miko, in killing Lord Shojo, also cut the gem on the throne that was the gatekey in two. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2925 "2011-12-30T16:26:47Z")
[Comic](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)…it appears I was wrong…it’s AFTER Shojo is already dead. Miko sees that O-Chul tried to destroy the gate to keep it out of Xykon’s hands, so she takes the sword from his paralyzed hands and destroys it herself…in typical Miko fashion, AFTER it’s safe because Xykon is almost finished. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2926 "2011-12-30T17:22:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Comic](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)…it appears I was wrong…it’s AFTER Shojo is already dead. Miko sees that O-Chul tried to destroy the gate to keep it out of Xykon’s hands, so she takes the sword from his paralyzed hands and destroys it herself…in typical Miko fashion, AFTER it’s safe because Xykon is almost finished. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2927 "2011-12-30T18:00:37Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > ETA: Aquatic goblins, too! I kept trying to remember if there was a real name for them in-game, like the kopoacinth (aquatic gargoyle) or the merrow (aquatic ogre), but there apparently is not. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > To quote [Burlew himself](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12448939&postcount=33) on the OOTS forum: Oh. I just assumed that Red Cloak loaded up on Water Breathing for the search effort. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2928 "2011-12-30T18:39:35Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > [Comic](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0462.html)…it appears I was wrong…it’s AFTER Shojo is already dead. Miko sees that O-Chul tried to destroy the gate to keep it out of Xykon’s hands, so she takes the sword from his paralyzed hands and destroys it herself…in typical Miko fashion, AFTER it’s safe because Xykon is almost finished. And the reason it’s so big is because Redcloak was experimenting with it for a while since they set up shop there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2929 "2011-12-30T23:43:10Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > Oh. I just assumed that Red Cloak loaded up on Water Breathing for the search effort. So did I actually; but if you look closely they have webbed feet and “fish fin” style ears. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2930 "2011-12-31T21:56:37Z")
Dxyye Mwp Ewxk to you all ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2011, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2931 "2011-12-31T22:19:38Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Dxyye Mwp Ewxk to you all So’s your old man! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2932 "2012-01-03T05:47:58Z")
Sorry, not an update. (Maybe we should split this into two separate threads. One for comments on the current strip and one for overall discussions.) But anyway, I was looking over some older strips and I noticed how Burlew might be setting up a parallel between Belkar and Kraagar. Kraagar was the dwarf fighter in the Order of the Scribble (the group that created the gates). In the final battle with the Snarl, he was sacrificed by his teammates in order to defeat the Snarl. This let to confrontations between the members of that group, which broke up in hostility. And that led to much of the current problems the Order of the Stick (and the rest of their world) are facing. Now the parallel is that Roy and Haley think Belkar is going to die in the near future. But they’re apparently willing to accept this. They haven’t told Belkar of his imminent death or worked on trying to prevent his death. Their plan seems to be to use him as long as he’s around. The cold-bloodedness reminds me of the attitude the earlier group had about sacrificing one of their members for the greater goals of the mission. And I think that’s intentional. I’m speculating that Burlew is going to make it a point that Roy and Haley’s willingness to sacrifice Belkar will cause a backlash in the group just as the sacrifice of Kraagar caused a backlash in the earlier group. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2933 "2012-01-03T06:02:03Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But anyway, I was looking over some older strips and I noticed how Burlew might be setting up a parallel between Belkar and Kraagar. Kraagar was the dwarf fighter in the Order of the Scribble (the group that created the gates). In the final battle with the Snarl, he was sacrificed by his teammates in order to defeat the Snarl. This let to confrontations between the members of that group, which broke up in hostility. And that led to much of the current problems the Order of the Stick (and the rest of their world) are facing. Do you have a link to that strip? I don’t remember the original Order sacrificing him: I thought he was killed in battle with it. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2934 "2012-01-03T06:15:39Z")
Maybe, but I don’t know. We don’t know much about Kraggar, but from the [three panels](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) we saw of him, he seemed to be a well-liked member of the group, who Serini, Girard, and Lirian, at least, missed. Belkar, on the other hand, is a evil bastard who no one really likes. Roy and Haley, as leaders, would probably feel the most guilty about sacrificing him, and they’ve both resigned themselves to the possibility. I like the idea of Belkar being sacrificed in a parallel to Kraggar, but I don’t see it causing backlash, especially since Burlew’s said that the strip has a definite ending planned, soon after the final confrontation. On preview, there’s the link you asked for, **Miller**. It’s a little of both. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2935 "2012-01-03T06:28:03Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Do you have a link to that strip? I don’t remember the original Order sacrificing him: I thought he was killed in battle with it. It wasn’t like they threw into a volcano but they did cause his death. Kraagar was fighting the Snarl and Soon told Dorukan to cast a spell against the Snarl even though Kraagar was inside its range. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 10:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2936 "2012-01-03T10:03:11Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Kraagar was fighting the Snarl and Soon told Dorukan to cast a spell against the Snarl even though Kraagar was inside its range. As was Soon. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2937 "2012-01-03T15:05:31Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > As was Soon. Soon may have been close but he obviously wasn’t inside the range, as indicated by the fact he survived. And even if he had been inside the spell’s range, it was one thing for him to call the spell in on himself and something very different for him to call it in on Kraagar. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2938 "2012-01-03T15:50:34Z")
That’s just your speculation. It’s not clear exactly how Kraagor died. We don’t know the full story yet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2939 "2012-01-03T16:48:04Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > That’s just your speculation. It’s not clear exactly how Kraagor died. We don’t know the full story yet. We see Kraagar fighting the Snarl. Soon: “Cast the spell! Seal the rift!” Lirian: “No! Not until you’re both clear!” Soon: “Do it!” And in the next panel we see them burying Kraagar. Are you saying that something other than the spell killed Kraagar? Because that would mean there was a real off-scene twist. And the panels depict Shojo telling the Order what happened so you’d think he’d have said something like _“…but at the last second before Dorukan cast his spell, Kraagar was able to leap away. Unfortunately, later that same day he died when his foot slipped on a wet rock.”_ ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2940 "2012-01-03T18:28:57Z")
I assumed that the OOTS was a spoof on role playing games and gamers, to some extent. In a real life group, the players may be friends, but one of them could be role playing a Belker type psychopath. The other players aren’t going to kick him out of the group, but would let him kill himself doing something stupid. So, while it’s implausible for a more or less “good” aligned group to have an assassin adventuring with them, it’s overlooked becuase real life friends want to play the game together. I assume that Roy and Haley could be said to fell that Belker can avoid his own death through his own choices and actions. Not all that different from real life anyway. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2941 "2012-01-03T19:54:57Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Are you saying that something other than the spell killed Kraagar? \* I always thought that the Snarl killed him, just as it killed Soon’s wife. It never occurred to me before now that it was the spell that killed him. Now that you mention it, I see it as a possibility. You might be right, but there again maybe not. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=146) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=148)