# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 148
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2942 "2012-01-03T20:57:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Soon may have been close but he obviously wasn’t inside the range, as indicated by the fact he survived. And even if he had been inside the spell’s range, it was one thing for him to call the spell in on himself and something very different for him to call it in on Kraagar. I’m pretty sure Soon was in range of the spell - Lirian says that they _both_ need to get clear. This is D&D. The fact that he survived doesn’t mean he wasn’t in range, it means he made his saving throw. Whether or not killing a dangerous foe justifies hitting other PCs with spell splash damage is a pretty frequent debate around my gaming table, but I don’t think the circumstances justify the use of the word “sacrifice.” It wasn’t a deliberate decision to kill the dwarf to save the world - it was a risky action that might have gone off perfectly, or might have killed them both. Which is just the sort of risk adventures face on a regular basis. It’s also worth noting that we really don’t know anything about Kraagar’s personality. Imagine Roy and Durkon in that situation - Durkon would have absolutely no problem sacrificing himself if it meant stopping the Snarl. Kraagar may have been the same way. Or, imagine Belkar instead of Kraagar, being so gone in a psychotic fury that he doesn’t even realize that the spell’s about to hit him, and is going to keep fighting it until the rift gets too big for the spell to seal it. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > I always thought that the Snarl killed him, just as it killed Soon’s wife. It never occurred to me before now that it was the spell that killed him. > > Now that you mention it, I see it as a possibility. You might be right, but there again maybe not. My assumption is that he was trapped on the other side of the rift when it was closed. Which might tie into what the raven saw when it looked into the rift over Azure City. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2943 "2012-01-03T23:06:03Z")
Whenever you’re reading a work of fiction you have to remember that things don’t just happen. Everything is there because the author made a conscious choice to put it in the story. And Rich Burlew has shown he puts a lot of work into planning out small details. So I’m assuming Kraagar didn’t just happen to die. Burlew created the character of Kraagar for the purpose of killing him - so there is a reason for his death. Same thing with Belkar’s predicted death. Burlew created Belkar and created the Oracle in order that the Oracle could predict Belkar’s death. And Burlew created the circumstances that let Roy know about this prediction. So again, Burlew had a reason for doing all of these things. I’m just wondering if the reasons are connected. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2012, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2944 "2012-01-03T23:43:54Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Whenever you’re reading a work of fiction you have to remember that things don’t just happen. Everything is there because the author made a conscious choice to put it in the story. And Rich Burlew has shown he puts a lot of work into planning out small details. > > So I’m assuming Kraagar didn’t just happen to die. Burlew created the character of Kraagar for the purpose of killing him - so there is a reason for his death. [Not everything in the comic has a hidden meaning.](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6415998&postcount=6) [Sometimes, I put in details solely because it adds a touch of realism or detail to a panel… Not everything has a story attached to it, or at least, not a story worth telling.](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8991248&postcount=29) Maybe the death of Kraagor is just a little detail with no overall plot significance. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2945 "2012-01-04T15:31:22Z")
[Ooooh! A Big Twist!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html) (#824 is up!) ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2946 "2012-01-04T15:35:55Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > [Ooooh! A Big Twist!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0824.html) > > (#824 is up!) Wonder if they have the resources handy to destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2947 "2012-01-04T15:41:06Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Wonder if they have the resources handy to destroy it. Even if they can’t, they still can take it far away while the gobbos keep looking and looking and Xykon sits on his bones waiting… ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2948 "2012-01-04T15:43:13Z")
That may be the answer to it - giving everybody the time to get to the next gate before Xykon gets active again. They might actually be able to steal a march on him (but I doubt it!) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2949 "2012-01-04T16:02:45Z")
How do the elves/resistance even know what it is? All the goblins say is that it’s some sort of doohickey that TPTB really, really want. Does it even show up on magical “Detect Evil/Magic” scans? You’d think it wouldn’t, given the screening spells Redcloak and Xykon put on it. I guess O-Chul could have told the Azurites about Xykon’s loss of the phylactery, as well as its description and where it was last seen. The Azurites could then have “Sent” the news to the Resistance, who would then have had to lurk throughout the city hoping to catch one of the search parties with the loot. Seems low probability, but that’s what Drama is for. Neat twist. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2950 "2012-01-04T16:54:08Z")
Neat reversal of Tarquin’s advice from[a few strips ago.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2951 "2012-01-04T17:22:42Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Neat reversal of Tarquin’s advice from[a few strips ago.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0821.html) Except in a weird way, you can view the Azurites as the antagonists to the goblins. Consider this: The only reason the Redcloak and Xykon ever teamed up to find the gates is because the Azurites massacred Redcloaks’s village without provacation in an effort to proactively protect the gate from potential threats. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2952 "2012-01-04T17:50:28Z")
Nobody expects the Elven Resistance. Among their chief weapons are: fear, surprise, ruthless efficiency, and near fanatical devotion to Elrond. ---
**Author:** ![Silophant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a698b9/32.png) [@Silophant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Silophant)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2953 "2012-01-04T17:51:58Z")
Heh. Paladins can’t even associate with evil similes. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2954 "2012-01-04T20:31:14Z")
I don’t understand the Shelby reference. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2955 "2012-01-04T20:59:53Z")
I don’t think it’s a reference to anything, except Xykon’s predilection towards killing henchmen when he gets bored. And Shelby is kind of a funny name for a goblin. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2956 "2012-01-04T21:09:41Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > How do the elves/resistance even know what it is? > > All the goblins say is that it’s some sort of doohickey that TPTB really, really want. Does it even show up on magical “Detect Evil/Magic” scans? You’d think it wouldn’t, given the screening spells Redcloak and Xykon put on it. > > I guess O-Chul could have told the Azurites about Xykon’s loss of the phylactery, as well as its description and where it was last seen. The Azurites could then have “Sent” the news to the Resistance, who would then have had to lurk throughout the city hoping to catch one of the search parties with the loot. > > Seems low probability, but that’s what Drama is for. Neat twist. V is an elf from the Elven Lands. V was the one who sent the phylactery down the sewer to begin with. V knows about the Azurite Resistance and feels serious guilt over letting them down before. You do the math. Also, elves are despicable Mary Sues, especially when it comes to magic 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2957 "2012-01-04T21:19:42Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think it’s a reference to anything, except Xykon’s predilection towards killing henchmen when he gets bored. And Shelby is kind of a funny name for a goblin. It’s a reference to an extra strip in either War or No Cure, where Xykon and the Gang have to clean out all of the Good creatures from I forget who’s tower. The final Good critter is an Ancient Silver Dragon, which proceeds to kick ass on Xykon and the gang until Shelby the ordinary Goblin mook throws an axe and decapitates the dragon. (Go figure how many 20s in a row that would take.) Xykon realizes that Shelby would get enough XP from the death to potentially be a threat, or at least another character to have to keep track of, so he Energy Drains Shelby to death. Kobal, I thought V was keeping his activities as Darth V under hir (his/her? its?) hat as much as possible, hence it would’ve been O-Chul telling them. Still doesn’t explain how the Resistance caught on so fast where the phylactery was, (as gets lampshaded by the Goblin bluecloak’s question), but I’m sure there’ll be an interesting explanation for it later. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2958 "2012-01-04T22:14:01Z")
Good grief. Those dopes think killing the goblins is going to prevent Xykon from finding out who took the phylactry? They’ve got a high-level cleric _and_ multiple means of creating undead! _Speak with Dead_ is, what, only level 3? ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2959 "2012-01-04T22:22:50Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Good grief. Those dopes think killing the goblins is going to prevent Xykon from finding out who took the phylactry? They’ve got a high-level cleric _and_ multiple means of creating undead! _Speak with Dead_ is, what, only level 3? If they communicated with HQ about the find already, sure - but there’s nothing in the strip either way about it. If HQ doesn’t know they had the phylactery, then they’re just another group of goblins killed by the resistance, and there’s no reason they’d think to cast Speak With Dead on them. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2960 "2012-01-04T23:21:12Z")
Tsukiko’s going to raise them as intelligent undead like Wights in any event. Well, OK, she might raise the rank and file as just zombies, but a body with evil priest levels is money. Intelligent undead can talk. Whether they can remember is another question, of course. Or Redcloak could just be smart and realize the Resistance isn’t in the business of killing random groups of gobbos just for the body count, that’s a losing strategy when there’s little Resistance and lots upon lots upon lots of gobbos. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2012, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/2961 "2012-01-04T23:37:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Or Redcloak could just be smart and realize the Resistance isn’t in the business of killing random groups of gobbos just for the body count… [They might be](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0707.html). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=147) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=149)