# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 154
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3062 "2012-01-13T21:44:50Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Criminy, guys! What rules is Rich playing with? > Is this the 4th Edition? [3.5.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3063 "2012-01-13T21:47:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [3.5.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0001.html) Thank you, Sith Lord. Gosh, it has been a long time. I started playing when we didn’t even have polyhedral dice. We actually had numbered tokens in a dixie cup and picked them out to determine the ‘roll’. Yes… This was 1974. Really. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3064 "2012-01-13T21:48:18Z")
To expand: Redcloak has at least 6 4th-level spell slots, 4 6th-level, and 2 8th-level, to use on Lesser Planar Ally, Planar Ally, and Greater Planar Ally, respectively. Each of those slots could have gotten him 1, 2, or 3 Bearded Devils, respectively. A Horned Devil would take an 8th-level slot, and the elemental either a 6th or an 8th level slot, depending on precisely how big it was (though he might have Summoned that rather than Allying it; we don’t see the elemental getting paid). So he could easily have had the slots for, say, a pair of Horned Devils, plus 14 Bearded Devils. And it’s even more, if he used scrolls or the like. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3065 "2012-01-13T21:50:50Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Criminy, guys! What rules is Rich playing with? > Is this the 4th Edition It’s 3.5. There was a joke near the beginning of the whole thing where the PCs got upgraded from 3 to 3.5. Rich has stated that he has no intention of moving the strip into any newer editions than 3.5. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3066 "2012-01-13T23:19:02Z")
> [@Gagundathar](#): > > Thank you, Sith Lord. > Gosh, it has been a long time. > I started playing when we didn’t even have polyhedral dice. > We actually had numbered tokens in a dixie cup and picked them out to determine the ‘roll’. > Yes… This was 1974. > Really. I was negative one years old at the time. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3067 "2012-01-14T01:42:02Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > No, that’s not the case. In both 3.5 and Pathfinder (I didn’t look any further back than that) the lich is explicitly described as storing their soul (or “life force,” per 3.5) in the phylactery at the time of their transformation into a lich. Although destroying the phylactery before destroying the lich does not appear to adversely affect the lich, as one would expect. IIRC, Xykon raises just that point to Redcloak in _Start of Darkness_, to prevent Redcloak from thinking he can use the phylactery to blackmail Xykon. Yeah, specifically, when Redcloak threatens to smash it, he says “Thing is, my soul isn’t in there right now. Smashing it won’t do anything to me. That phylactery is just a pricey bauble unless you destroy me first. Of course, if you so much as smudge the shine on that pricey bauble…” ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3068 "2012-01-14T02:29:16Z")
Er, and when I say “he” says, I meant that that’s what Xykon says to Redclock in response to Redcloak’s threat to smash it. Also, since this IS the SDMB, I’ll add a cite: the quote was from page 74 of **Start of Darkness**. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3069 "2012-01-14T04:01:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Although destroying the phylactery before destroying the lich does not appear to adversely affect the lich, as one would expect. IIRC, Xykon raises just that point to Redcloak in _Start of Darkness_, to prevent Redcloak from thinking he can use the phylactery to blackmail Xykon. That’s what I was thinking about when talking about switching phylacteries around, yes. If Xykon wasn’t lying and destroying his philactery wouldn’t be a big deal to him as long as he was still unalive, I assumed he could just make a new one (else Redcloak smashing it, while evidently leading to the death of Redcloak in a very near future, \*would \*severely affect Xykon’s power). In which case it would be prudent to smash this one and create another before moving away from Azure City. > [@](#): > > Per the rules, liches have no such ability. You could house-rule it in, but I think that would be a mistake, given the dramatic possibilities inherent in tricking a lich into thinking something else is its phylactery. It seems that Burlew is not using any such rule, otherwise Xykon wouldn’t need to spend months having his goblins comb the sewers to find it - he could just stroll around down there until he sensed his phylactery, and then have a goblin dig it out of the muck for him. Are you kidding ? It’s all mucky and gross down there. Also very extensive, apparently. He’d take ages to comb the sludge on his own (and that’s assuming it hadn’t washed out to sea already). [QUOTE=Gray Ghost] Oh, and if Tsukiko is researching the Ritual with the unspoken goal of replacing RC as the divine caster, why not bring Tsukiko along to kill the Resistance? (With the idea of having her inconveniently fail to survive the raid?) [/QUOTE] Red is evidently trying to leave zero evidence of his smash & grab raid that Xykon could suss out. Xykon might not like Tsukiko, but he’d notice if she went missing. Probably. Besides, Xykon would probably just grab some popcorn if the both of them wanted to duke it out right in the open - no need for cloak & dagger there. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3070 "2012-01-14T06:46:56Z")
A possibility occurs to me. Assuming Niu is able to send her message (which appears to be a good assumption) then the information will presumably be sent on to Roy. Which means that Roy may be aware that Xykon’s phylactery’s been found and Xykon himself might not know it. And Redcloak appears to not have noticed Niu’s escape. This could create an interesting situation when the Order of the Stick has their inevitable confrontation with Team Evil. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3071 "2012-01-14T06:49:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Xykon might not like Tsukiko, but he’d notice if she went missing. Probably. “Hey, whatever happened to pig-tail girl?” Seriously, I think Xykon is more aware of what’s going on around him than he appears. As he once said, there’s a difference between not knowing and not caring. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 8:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3072 "2012-01-14T08:29:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > That’s what I was thinking about when talking about switching phylacteries around, yes. If Xykon wasn’t lying and destroying his philactery wouldn’t be a big deal to him as long as he was still unalive, I assumed he could just make a new one (else Redcloak smashing it, while evidently leading to the death of Redcloak in a very near future, \*would \*severely affect Xykon’s power). > > In which case it would be prudent to smash this one and create another before moving away from Azure City. At this point, it’s entirely up to how Rich wants to game it in his world, because there’s nothing in the books to cover this, but it seems to me that if he could make a new one, he could just make a new one - no need for the original to be destroyed. I also wonder if Xykon is less blase now about losing his phylactery then he was shortly after he became a lich. Back in _Start of Darkness_, he was still flush with the power and possibility of his newly undead form. But that was before Roy destroyed his body at Dorukan’s gate. Having been killed once, he might be a little more attentive about threats toward the thing that kept him alive. > [@](#): > > Are you kidding ? It’s all mucky and gross down there. Also very extensive, apparently. He’d take ages to comb the sludge on his own (and that’s assuming it hadn’t washed out to sea already). That’s the point, though: if he can sense his phylactery just by being near to it, he wouldn’t need to comb through the sludge. He could just walk through the tunnel on one of those walkways we see in the searching scene - or just fly above the surface of the muck. As extensive as the tunnels are, it wouldn’t take that much time for him to simply walk through them all until he felt the proximity of his phylactery, and then he could tell one of his goblins to get to digging. Time consuming, but still probably quicker than having his goblins rummage around in all that crap by hand. And Xykon is not known for his patience. Lazy as he is, I don’t see him passing up a way to get out of Azure City weeks or months faster than searching for it by hand. > [@Little Nemo](#): > > A possibility occurs to me. Assuming Niu is able to send her message (which appears to be a good assumption) then the information will presumably be sent on to Roy. Which means that Roy may be aware that Xykon’s phylactery’s been found and Xykon himself might not know it. And Redcloak appears to not have noticed Niu’s escape. This could create an interesting situation when the Order of the Stick has their inevitable confrontation with Team Evil. I don’t know about that - Neither Niu nor Roy has no reason to suspect any sort of a rift between Xykon and Redcloak. I don’t think anyone outside of Team Evil even knows who Redcloak is, do they? He’s just another goblin henchman to them - more powerful than the others, sure, but essentially just another interchangeable green face. ---
**Author:** ![blue\_infinity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blue_infinity/32/2817_2.png) [@blue\_infinity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue_infinity)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3073 "2012-01-14T11:51:09Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > At this point, it’s entirely up to how Rich wants to game it in his world, because there’s nothing in the books to cover this, but it seems to me that if he could make a new one, he could just make a new one - no need for the original to be destroyed. I think the original one does have to be destroyed. Otherwise wouldn’t every Lich just create a dozen phylacteries from word go? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3074 "2012-01-14T12:34:46Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I don’t think anyone outside of Team Evil even knows who Redcloak is, do they? He’s just another goblin henchman to them - more powerful than the others, sure, but essentially just another interchangeable green face. O-Chul does. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3075 "2012-01-14T14:30:48Z")
And therefore we have to assume the others know. O-Chul’s too good a soldier to not pass on that sort of intel. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3076 "2012-01-14T17:32:37Z")
And Haley was a leader in the Azure City resistance for months. She must have noticed that Redcloak was a leader of the goblin occupiers. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3077 "2012-01-14T18:58:01Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > O-Chul does. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > And Haley was a leader in the Azure City resistance for months. She must have noticed that Redcloak was a leader of the goblin occupiers. Good points, but I don’t think they have any reason to suspect Redcloak is less than completely loyal, do they? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3078 "2012-01-14T20:32:58Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Good points, but I don’t think they have any reason to suspect Redcloak is less than completely loyal, do they? That was my point. Up to now, they’ve had every reason to think Redcloak is just a loyal albeit powerful minion. But they now know he has Xykon’s phylactery. So if at some point, Roy finds out that Xykon thinks the phylactery is still missing, he’ll be able to put the pieces together and realize Redcloak is keeping secrets from Xykon and isn’t as loyal as he appears. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3079 "2012-01-14T21:28:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not sure what the demon in the tunnel is - I think it’s one of the ones in the main hall. It only looks redder because the lighting in the tunnel is different… Thanks for the lengthy answers to my questions, Miller & Kobal2. I don’t want to get all Zapruder film-y, and Burlew isn’t absolutely ironclad with consistent artwork, but the Horned Devils have different colored lower bodies, with fur, and hooves. The Devil in the Tunnel’s lower body is the same color as its upper body, and in the last frame, it has a foot the same color as its hands. Of course, Pit Fiends usually come with their own standard barbecue display, ‘wreathed in flames’ etc… which are absent in this creature’s art. (Just curious as to whether it was a Pit Fiend, as it’s my front-runner theory for what the MiTD is. Obviously, a baby or child version. I know, creature that’s an embodiment of pure evil, they don’t have kids, etc… A lot of the powers the MiTD has—Wish, high strength, ugliness, brains—it fits. Well, that or it’s something in Deities and Demigods that didn’t get converted over to 3.5, with CR\>19 or so. It should be possible to easily guess, given there just aren’t that many creatures with that high a CR, that can fit in that box, that can also be charmed and can cast wish/greater teleport/plane shift/you-name-the-‘escape’-spell) Thinking about it, yeah RC probably doesn’t want to let X know that he’s had a spy in their midst, and that the Resistance has had one in their midst, and that therefore RC knew where the Resistance was for awhile. And was only now getting around to snuffing them. He also _definitely_ doesn’t want to let X know that he almost lost the phylactery forever—if the raiding party had a Sphere of Annihilation or such handy. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3080 "2012-01-14T21:36:41Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Oh, and if Tsukiko is researching the Ritual with the unspoken goal of replacing RC as the divine caster, why not bring Tsukiko along to kill the Resistance? (With the idea of having her inconveniently fail to survive the raid?) Does Redcloak know that she’s doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3081 "2012-01-14T22:46:19Z")
We’ve seen a Pit Fiend [already in the comic](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0584.html). At least, that’s what everyone was assuming that was, at the time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=153) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=155)