# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 157
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3122 "2012-01-21T18:34:32Z")
I believe it says ‘I \<3 gold,’ but I’m too lazy to search for the strip in which we can see it more clearly than that one. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3123 "2012-01-21T20:20:07Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > You know, I never noticed before but Haley’s got a back tattoo. > > [468 Splitting Up is Hard to Do - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) It’s red; is that a tattoo or a wound? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3124 "2012-01-22T06:54:33Z")
[829 is up.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html) ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3125 "2012-01-22T07:07:08Z")
One of those two is not going to be leaving that roof alive. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3126 "2012-01-22T07:28:35Z")
Room. I mean room. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3127 "2012-01-22T08:10:07Z")
So where is Tsukiko going with this? Why would it matter if some ritual (the one mentioned in exactly one comic like 1000 strips ago) has conjuration or beef flavor or whatever? Can DnD geeks geek in small syllables for the less enlightened? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3128 "2012-01-22T08:22:02Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > So where is Tsukiko going with this? Why would it matter if some ritual (the one mentioned in exactly one comic like 1000 strips ago) has conjuration or beef flavor or whatever? Can DnD geeks geek in small syllables for the less enlightened? Thanks. Cliff’s notes version? She was looking at a ritual supposedly meant to control the Snarl, that doesn’t actually use magic that is good at controlling things. It’s sort of like finding a cake recipe that contains potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulphur. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3129 "2012-01-22T08:35:25Z")
[Spoilers from _Start of Darkness_] What Redcloak knows - and Xykon doesn’t - is that the Snarl is by its nature uncontrollable. That ritual is designed not to command it, but to free it from its prison, allowing it to destroy the universe. That’s the Plan - either to compel the gods to make the world a fairer place for goblinkind, or to wipe the slate clean and hope the next world is better. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3130 "2012-01-22T09:07:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > One of those two is not going to be leaving that roof alive. > [@Alessan](#): > > Room. I mean room. After the fight, it may well be a roof… ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3131 "2012-01-22T09:21:33Z")
Man, Redcloak is lucky Xykon isn’t back yet… Or Ms.Crazy Eyes would have already told him, and he’d be dead by now. Xykon is gonna be PISSED… Redcloak may have to kill her now and cover it up. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3132 "2012-01-22T09:34:20Z")
[quote] What Redcloak knows - and Xykon doesn’t - is that the Snarl is by its nature uncontrollable. That ritual is designed not to command it, but to free it from its prison, allowing it to destroy the universe. That’s the Plan - either to compel the gods to make the world a fairer place for goblinkind, or to wipe the slate clean and hope the next world is better.Hell, do I need to purchase Start of Darkness (and other aftermarket stuff?) to follow this comic? It’s been fairly followable until this issue, and I haven’t bothered with the for-purchase stuff, figuring people with duododecahedron dice need bother. I’m hoping RC or someone will start monologuing some plot details soon. That said, I can certainly see spiffing Berlew some $$$ in exchange for this comic, it’s pretty cool. I was hoping for a Belkar plush instead of a dead-tree exposition, though. > [@Babale](#): > > Man, Redcloak is lucky Xykon isn’t back yet… Or Ms.Crazy Eyes would have already told him, and he’d be dead by now. Xykon is gonna be PISSED… Redcloak may have to kill her now and cover it up. But something tells me Tsukiko has some ace in the hole if she’s confronting him now. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3133 "2012-01-22T11:46:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > You know, I never noticed before but Haley’s got a back tattoo. > > [468 Splitting Up is Hard to Do - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) At least it’s high up instead of being a tramp stamp. > [@Quartz](#): > > It’s red; is that a tattoo or a wound? What kind of guy do you think Elan is, anyway? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3134 "2012-01-22T12:07:03Z")
[quote=“squeegee, post:3132, topic:508323”] > [@](#): > > What Redcloak knows - and Xykon doesn’t - is that the Snarl is by its nature uncontrollable. That ritual is designed not to command it, but to free it from its prison, allowing it to destroy the universe. That’s the Plan - either to compel the gods to make the world a fairer place for goblinkind, or to wipe the slate clean and hope the next world is better.Hell, do I need to purchase Start of Darkness (and other aftermarket stuff?) to follow this comic? It’s been fairly followable until this issue, and I haven’t bothered with the for-purchase stuff, figuring people with duododecahedron dice need bother. I’m hoping RC or someone will start monologuing some plot details soon. That said, I can certainly see spiffing Berlew some $$$ in exchange for this comic, it’s pretty cool. I was hoping for a Belkar plush instead of a dead-tree exposition, though. > > But something tells me Tsukiko has some ace in the hole if she’s confronting him now. I’m sure that you wouldn’t need to buy any of the books to follow the main story; there is extra information in there, but anything that’s critical to the plot would be brought up in the strip when it’s important to know it. That said, the books are terrific and do a lot to flesh out the characters (except that in Xykon’s case, it’s more of a de-fleshing – lich joke!). I’ve never played D&D and my only dice are 6-sided, but I’ve got all the books and I’ve enjoyed them all. Gate spoiler: My understanding is not that the ritual will release the Snarl from the Gates’ control but rather transfer that control to the Dark One, thus giving leverage for the Dark One to demand fairer treatment for goblins from the other gods and their followers or face the unravelling of this world in the hope that the next weaving of reality will mean a better deal for goblins. Redcloak can’t really allow Tsukiko to tell Xykon what she’s figured out. I don’t see her leaving that room. She thinks her ‘Wrong-Eye’ jab is just a way to push Redcloak around, but she doesn’t realize what a dangerous game she’s playing. Everything Redcloak has done, every compromise and sacrifice he’s made, most especially what happened with his brother, has been for the Dark One’s Plan. The only reason he swallowed his pride before is that he’s playing a long game. Tsukiko has just directly challenged that long game. She’s toast. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3135 "2012-01-22T12:10:28Z")
Sheeesh. This is a bit a a … uh… snarl in the plot, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3136 "2012-01-22T13:00:51Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Redcloak can’t really allow Tsukiko to tell Xykon what she’s figured out. I don’t see her leaving that room. She thinks her ‘Wrong-Eye’ jab is just a way to push Redcloak around, but she doesn’t realize what a dangerous game she’s playing. Everything Redcloak has done, every compromise and sacrifice he’s made, most especially what happened with his brother, has been for the Dark One’s Plan. The only reason he swallowed his pride before is that he’s playing a long game. Tsukiko has just directly challenged that long game. She’s toast. Yeah, I read that this morning and I thought ‘Uh oh, here we go’. One of the things readers need to remember, and I’d bet the Redcloak DOES remember, is that Tsukiko is inherently irrational. She’s working for Xykon out of, God help me, love. She truly believes that completing her research will win Xykon’s love for her in return. At the same time she also clearly views Redcloak as a rival for Xykon’s affection. She can’t be counted on to respond rationally to any form of persuasion. Toss that in and earlier fact that Burlew showed us that RC just leveled up to at least 17? I can’t imagine that Tsukiko is anywhere near as high as that. If she were how the hell did Azure City manage to capture and imprison her? Keeping a near epic level spellcaster imprisoned is non-trivial. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3137 "2012-01-22T15:27:14Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Cliff’s notes version? She was looking at a ritual supposedly meant to control the Snarl, that doesn’t actually use magic that is good at controlling things. It’s sort of like finding a cake recipe that contains potassium nitrate, charcoal and sulphur. There should be more exploding cakes in this world. > [@Alessan](#): > > One of those two is not going to be leaving that roof alive. I’m not so sure akshully. Redcloak seems genuinely puzzled in panel #10. His expression in the last panel is more open to interpretation - could be “Oh crap, she knows !” or “What the fuck is she talking about ?!” or even “My whole life has been a lie !” What I think is that Tsukiko is a dumb-as-nails bint who might have stumbled into something that had eluded Redcloak’s notice from the beginning. After all, if the cloak comes from God and the cloak imparts knowledge of the ritual, it’s only natural Redcloak would trust the ritual to do whatever it is God says it does, right ? But the true ritual is not about summoning the Snarl per se. It’s supposed to be about being able to move the rifts around and maybe also undo the bindings put on them by the Gates. Maybe the one with an embarrassing little secret that just popped out from under the carpet is the Dark One, is what I’m saying. Admittedly, this theory is annoyingly hampered by the fact that teleportation and planar manipulations also broadly fall within the Conjuration school, so Redcloak shouldn’t be all that confused even if his god did BS him. Still, it’s a thought. Didn’t Vaarsuvius bitch that Teleport used to be in Evocation under older rulesets ? Also, while moving matter around is Conj, usually anything that manipulates magic itself, such as loosening the Gates, should fall under Abjuration right ? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3138 "2012-01-22T16:31:43Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What I think is that Tsukiko is a dumb-as-nails bint who might have stumbled into something that had eluded Redcloak’s notice from the beginning. After all, if the cloak comes from God and the cloak imparts knowledge of the ritual, it’s only natural Redcloak would trust the ritual to do whatever it is God says it does, right ? But the true ritual is not about summoning the Snarl per se. It’s supposed to be about being able to move the rifts around and maybe also undo the bindings put on them by the Gates. Maybe the one with an embarrassing little secret that just popped out from under the carpet is the Dark One, is what I’m saying. From _Start of Darkness_: > [@](#): > > Right-Eye: Why did you just lie to him? > > Redcloak: About what? > > RE: About controlling the Snarl. You told me that the Snarl couldn’t be controlled AT ALL, not even with the Gate. > > RC: Oh, well, yeah, that’s true. The Snarl is a being of primal chaos, the concept of control doesn’t even enter into its mind. Once release, it’s a nonstop killing machine. Look, when we warp the gate, it’ll give us a sort of control. Warping it will loosen the Gate’s connection to the world,allowing us to shift it to another plane at will. And if we control where the Gate is, we control where the rift is - and to which plane it leads. We could shift it to one of the outer planes and release the Snarl in the throne room of one of the Gods. > > RE: I’m pretty sure that’s not what he thought you meant. > > RC: I know. But that’s all the control we need if we are to enact the Dark One’s true vision for the Goblin race. > … > > RE: Anyway, what will Xykon do when he discovers it doesn’t work the way he thinks it does? > > RC: It won’t matter. Once the rituals are completed, the Dark One himself will control the ability to shift the Snarl’s rift. Xykon is strong, but not strong enough to challenge our god. It seems pretty clear to me. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3139 "2012-01-22T16:51:32Z")
Yes, that’s my point. That’s what Redcloak has been led to believe by the revelation from the Cloak: that the Plan is to give the Dark One control over where the Gates (and rifts) are so he can \*threaten \*to release it, or release it in a controlled fashion so the world/prison has to be remade with new ground rules. But all of his knowledge comes from one source: the Dark One. Whom he implicitly trusts to have the best interests of gobbokind in mind. But maybe what the Dark One \*actually \*planned was to let loose the Snarl to begin with, no negotiations, no blackmail, just kill everything and every god and unravel the Universe into nothingness out of sheer spite. He _is_ an Evil god, after all. They do that. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3140 "2012-01-22T17:01:51Z")
Post-limit ETA: maybe I was being unclear. What I’m saying is that if the Ritual did what Red thinks it will (i.e. wrest control of the gates from whoever has it now, hand it to the Dark One to do as he pleases), it would probably be Abjuration magic, not Conjuration, since that’s the school that deals with manipulating primal magic, most notably containment spells and barriers. Since the ritual _is_ Conjuration, not Abjuration, it could well do something else entirely, like summon the Snarl outright or even make more Snarls. Or it could just be Conjuration because moving shit around the Planes is Conjuration magic. But there’s some ambiguity to be found there. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3141 "2012-01-22T17:14:40Z")
You’re probably overthinking it. There’s enough drama in Tsukiko finding out Redcloak’s big secret without adding new wrinkles. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=156) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=158)