# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 164
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3262 "2012-01-24T19:00:09Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > It was a spell she used before, to save herself from the chlorine elemental during the battle for Azure City: [458 Exit Strategy - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0458.html) > > ETA: _sniff_ it everything thog imagined and so much more. And she had to fight the elemental because of her first interaction with Redcloak, [in the comic before.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) You know that saying that when someone shows you what they’re like, it’s your job to see it? RC & X have been showing her the way evil works from the beginning. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3263 "2012-01-24T19:33:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I guess she could have stored \*some \*actual undead control spells in her gazillion spell slots, but probably not as many as Redcloak has turning attempts per day and in any event she couldn’t have cast them while she was Grappled. Why ever would she need spells to control her little darlings who love their Mommy so much? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3264 "2012-01-24T19:39:01Z")
> [@Bosstone](#): > > As for Xykon’s reaction, I suspect it’ll go more like: > “Here’s your phylactery.” > “YES! Hey, where’s that creepy goth chick?” > “I dunno.” > “Huh. Whatever.” I get the impression that Redcloak intends to hide Xykon’s phylactery (though he may have to cough it up to make sure he’s on Xykon’s good side, insofar as he has one). Maybe he’s figured out a more promising avenue for using it as leverage. As for explaining what happened to Tsukiko, I’d tell Xykon that she got a lead on a Resistance HQ and led a quick raid to catch them by surprise. That would put the question off for the time being, and then when Xykon noticed that she never did get around to showing her face again he’d probably figure that she got in over her head and got clobbered. If he investigated enough to find the ruins, the obvious conclusion would be that both sides got wiped out. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3265 "2012-01-24T19:41:48Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > I get the impression that Redcloak intends to hide Xykon’s phylactery (though he may have to cough it up to make sure he’s on Xykon’s good side, insofar as he has one). Maybe he’s figured out a more promising avenue for using it as leverage. In panel 5 of #830, she says that Jirix informed X of the phylactery’s recovery and that X was going to teleport back soon. So unless RC has a bogus duplicate to show off, the phylactery may be a dead issue for now. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3266 "2012-01-24T19:45:32Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Xykon does not give a damn about Tsukiko or about the Resistance. He only cares about getting his phylactery back and then going on to the next Gate. > > He _might_ remember to ask about Tsukiko, but it’s doubtful he’ll remember about the Resistance – they only mattered while he had to stay in Azure City to prepare for going on to the next Gate. After that, they’re the (hob)goblins’ problem… and he doesn’t care anything about them, either. > > Redcloak seems ready to give Xykon his/a phylactery, and ready to go on to the next Gate. If he’s able to turn Tsukiko’s death into an amusing joke to tell Xykon, all the better. But no way is Xykon going to be upset by Tsukiko’s demise. Well, he does want to hear what Tsukiko found out from her studies of the arcane half of the ritual. Without her, he either has to do his own homework or find another trustworthy arcane spellcaster. At a minimum, he’ll find this annoying. If he asked Tsukiko to look into the ritual because he isn’t entirely sure about Redcloak’s word and wants a second independent opinion\*, he’s may be a bit suspicious that she conveniently died before giving her report. \*And, really, what other reason would he have? Intellecutal curiosity? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3267 "2012-01-24T19:48:30Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > In panel 5 of #830, she says that Jirix informed X of the phylactery’s recovery and that X was going to teleport back soon. So unless RC has a bogus duplicate to show off, the phylactery may be a dead issue for now. Well, he could say that the Resistance ambushed the finders and took the phylactery. Heck, it even happens to be a technically true statement. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3268 "2012-01-24T19:56:02Z")
Wait… In strip 830, Redcloak says “From the Lowliest zombie to Xykon himself, the undead are just complex weapons that we make and aim at other people. All that differs is how direct or subtle our control of them is.” Umm, isn’t Xykon sentient, free willed? How can he consider Xykon just a tool? I realise that even sentient folks can be manipulated, but I wouldn’t consider them tool/weapons… ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3269 "2012-01-24T20:01:43Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > There’d have to be some kind of observable effect. There’s no finger-waggling or words involved, and she’s not an undead herself, so she wouldn’t feel the effects. I disagree. It’s uses an action, so it clearly involves doing SOMETHING (POWER OF GOD!! from the old capcom side-scroller is traditional), and it has a burst effect, so it’s not an internalized. No reason to assume it’s undetectable, and several to assume it isn’t. As she has the same class ability and is specialized in undead, her not knowing what it is or not noticing isn’t reasonable. At the very least, she saw Redcloak casually seduce her babies right in front of her, and didn’t care. Her not taking any precautions against her control being usurped makes perfect sense, given her established delusions. Her **not noticing** him swiping control right in front of her, or worse, noticing and **not caring** , is her picking up a huge flashing idiot ball. Not a huge deal, but a bit I think could have been done better. As for sympathy, that’s not THAT hard. She’s pretty young woman betrayed by someone she thought cared about her, but never did. That’s inherently sympathetic, regardless of how terrible a person the character in question might be. Happens to a lot of many ‘mad scientists daughter’ types. Rich has already used it twice. (Thrylerka and Miko, though Miko’s ‘betrayal’ was less severe) – Man, now I REALLY want to play that old side-scroller. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3270 "2012-01-24T20:07:40Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > Well, he could say that the Resistance ambushed the finders and took the phylactery. Heck, it even happens to be a technically true statement. That wouldn’t be wise. Retrieving the phylactery was Redcloak’s job. If Redcloak failed to retrieve the phylactery, Xykon’s unlikely to give credit for mitigating circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3271 "2012-01-24T20:16:50Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Bzzzt. He also cares about the ritual, and probably doesn’t trust Redcloak about it else he wouldn’t have tried to figure it out in the first place (waste of time when there’s something good on TV). Yes, he cares about the ritual. And he’s lazy, and would like not to have to do any work himself. Which means absolutely nothing about whether he cares about _Tsukiko_. She’s just another disposable minion. He can always find another disposable minion to take her place. Worse case, he’ll just learn the ritual himself. He. does. not. care. about. Tsukiko. Redcloak understands this. That’s why he went ahead and killed her. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3272 "2012-01-24T20:17:22Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > I disagree. It’s uses an action, so it clearly involves doing SOMETHING (POWER OF GOD!! from the old capcom side-scroller is traditional), and it has a burst effect, so it’s not an internalized. No reason to assume it’s undetectable, and several to assume it isn’t. As she has the same class ability and is specialized in undead, her not knowing what it is or not noticing isn’t reasonable. At the very least, she saw Redcloak casually seduce her babies right in front of her, and didn’t care. > > Her not taking any precautions against her control being usurped makes perfect sense, given her established delusions. Her **not noticing** him swiping control right in front of her, or worse, noticing and **not caring** , is her picking up a huge flashing idiot ball. Not a huge deal, but a bit I think could have been done better. If he fired it up right before walking through the doorway, she may not have had line of sight. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3273 "2012-01-24T20:21:12Z")
Redcloak may have swiped control at the same moment he was ordering her to get out. (Strip 828, panel 6.) She may have mistaken his gesture as a “get out” gesture. Unlikely, but possible. ---
**Author:** ![Ura-Maru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Ura-Maru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ura-Maru)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3274 "2012-01-24T20:45:26Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Wait… > > In strip 830, Redcloak says “From the Lowliest zombie to Xykon himself, the undead are just complex weapons that we make and aim at other people. All that differs is how direct or subtle our control of them is.” > > Umm, isn’t Xykon sentient, free willed? How can he consider Xykon just a tool? > > I realise that even sentient folks can be manipulated, but I wouldn’t consider them tool/weapons… Redcloak has his own blind spots and prejudices. He’s convinced himself that he has more influence over Xykon than he does, because that justifies his past actions and lets him have hope for the future. (And because the one constant of Xykon’s existence is this: Everyone ALWAYS underestimates him) He’s going to give The Dark One control over the gates, because he assumes The Dark One actually cares about Goblins. He’s meant to be a tragic villain. He’s achieved his goal of a true goblin homeland, and he’s going to lose it all because of the means he’s used to bring it about. As for Xykon, I don’t think anyone arguing he CARED about Tsukiko. He doesn’t **care** about anyone, Redcloak included. The only value they have to him is how useful and/or amusing they are. But he also isn’t as stupid as he comes off. It’s entirely possible that one of Tsukiko’s ‘useful’ functions was keeping Redcloak honest. Which, intentional or no, almost worked. If she’d gone to him with her suspicions, instead of confronting Redcloak, he would have looked deeper into what Redcloak was doing, and (probably) killed him. Or NOT killed him and wiped out a huge swath of Gobtopia to teach him a lesson. Ah, well. A Dark Lord has to make do with the tools he’s given. – The point of Xykon’s ‘power is power’ speech was that power is, essentially, ‘whatever works.’ V was obsessed with obtaining **magical** power, to the exclusion of everything else. He lost not because Xykon beat him spell-to-spell, but because Xykon had, in addition to his own spells, allies who could cover his weaknesses, and native lich abilities. V was like a 5’4 master fencer fighting an armored 7’ berserker with a claymore. Yes, he/she was ‘better’ from a pure skill perspective, but that wasn’t enough to overcome all Xykon’s other advantages. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3275 "2012-01-24T20:59:26Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Answer: They don’t. The original plan is now irrelevant. The Goblins have their homeland. The Dark One’s new plan is to build up trade and diplomatic relations with other nations. This is now more important to him than controlling the gate. And his message to Redcloak is “Don’t screw this up.” [link](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0704.html) That’s an interesting interpretation. You’re saying that the stuff about trade and diplomacy was directed to Redcloak and/or goblins in general, rather than just to Jirix? That would certainly be a twist for Reddy. Also- anyone else donate to the Kickstart thing? I can’t wait to read the O-Chul story. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3276 "2012-01-24T21:03:27Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > Also- anyone else donate to the Kickstart thing? I can’t wait to read the O-Chul story. I don’t know what that is. Linky, please? I don’t see anything mentioned in “The Store”. Edit: I see it now in the Forum section. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3277 "2012-01-24T21:06:15Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Redcloak has his own blind spots and prejudices. He’s convinced himself that he has more influence over Xykon than he does, because that justifies his past actions and lets him have hope for the future. But look how little influence Redcloak needs: he pretty much just wants Xykon to cast that spell with him at a gate, and – well, that’s about it, really, sure as Xykon is apparently down with that. Why figure Redcloak thinks he’s got more influence than that? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3278 "2012-01-24T21:15:27Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Yes, he cares about the ritual. And he’s lazy, and would like not to have to do any work himself. > > Which means absolutely nothing about whether he cares about _Tsukiko_. She’s just another disposable minion. Yup, we agree. A disposable minion. With an unfulfilled purpose. That’s what Xykon’s bound to gripe about. He clearly doesn’t care one bit if pigtail girl lives or dies, hell he’d have probably killed her himself once she’d outlived her usefulness (because she creeped him the fuck out, if nothing else). But she hadn’t yet. Which means… oh goddammit, somebody stole his kill AGAIN ! 🙂 > [@](#): > > He can always find another disposable minion to take her place. Worse case, he’ll just learn the ritual himself. What, you think high level spellcasters grow on trees or something ? Wait, let me rephrase that: you think high level, Evil spellcasters dumb enough that one may safely entrust them with a ritual of world domination and with enough lack of a crazed ego to agree to play minion grow on trees or something ? As for Xykon understanding the ritual himself, he tried. He foisted it on Tsukiko because he couldn’t make any sense of it. Because as he’s so proud of, he’s a sorcerer, and the magic is in his bones, and he doesn’t \*understand \*any of it. [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] I don’t know what you think Redcloak should do, if not _‘team up with Xykon to cast that spell at the next convenient gate.’_ [/QUOTE] Well, abandoning the Plan because he’s already achieved its endstate through other means springs to mind. But even if we dismiss this rather elegant solution, he doesn’t specifically need Xykon for the Plan - any arcane spellslinger could do the ritual. As for seizing the gates in the first place, he has _an entire civilization_ at his beck and call now. That, his sense of strategy & management and his newfangled personal spellpower is more than enough brute force to handle Girard’s illusions. Or the Order of the Stick. And he’s in no rush, either - the Order of the Scribble had what, sixty years of a headstart bunkerizing their respective gates ? What’s a couple decades more going to change ? Between the Crimson Mantle and his high level cleric magic he’s practically immortal, and now has a booming nation behind him. He could well groom a spunky young goblin wizard, send him to the Greysky City academy of magic or something. Him he’d not have to lie to, or worry that he doesn’t have the best interests of goblinkind in mind, or that he’d murder them all overnight on a lark. Or as I suggested, he could have tried to make a deal with Tsukiko, who’d have been much easier to handle than Xykon. But he’s married to the original Plan, so the idea didn’t even cross his mind. I mean, Redcloak himself is well aware that his alliance with Xykon is quasi-suicidal and always a cunt hair away from destroying gobbokind altogether. The \*only \*reason he doesn’t cut and run but rather grasps at his illusion of control is that he’s already invested too much in Xykon and simply refuses to let those costs be sunk, admit his mistakes and move on. Which brings us back to my original statement: Redcloak isn’t such a brainiac. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3279 "2012-01-24T21:21:16Z")
From the previous page: > [@](#): > > Look at what she says she expects Xykon to do once he learns that Redcloak is doublecrossing him: she says he’ll fire him. Well, to be fair, that probably _is_ what Xykon would do. Or maybe lightning him, but it’s the same end effect. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3280 "2012-01-24T21:26:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > From the previous page: > Well, to be fair, that probably _is_ what Xykon would do. Or maybe lightning him, but it’s the same end effect. “I find your lack of progress disturbing. Your employment here is… **terminated**!!” **bzzzzzzt krakathoooom** ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3281 "2012-01-24T21:29:20Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > I don’t know what you think Redcloak should do, if not _‘team up with Xykon to cast that spell at the next convenient gate.’_ > > Well, abandoning the Plan because he’s already achieved its endstate through other means springs to mind. And then Xykon fries him? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=163) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=165)