# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 165
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3282 "2012-01-24T21:31:17Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > What, you think high level spellcasters grow on trees or something ? Wait, let me rephrase that: you think high level, Evil spellcasters dumb enough that one may safely entrust them with a ritual of world domination and with enough lack of a crazed ego to agree to play minion grow on trees or something? Tsukiko was even more of a special case – her proclivities and the hope that Xykon would let her jump his bones if she served him sufficiently well made her loyal and trustworthy to a degree that he just isn’t going to find anywhere else. That disgusting biophiliac stuff may creep Xykon out, but I don’t think he’s above exploiting it. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3283 "2012-01-24T21:43:40Z")
And the phrase “jump his bones” has never been more appropriate… ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3284 "2012-01-24T21:57:35Z")
> [@Ura-Maru](#): > > Her **not noticing** him swiping control right in front of her, or worse, noticing and **not caring** , is her picking up a huge flashing idiot ball. Not a huge deal, but a bit I think could have been done better. I hate to make it seem like I’m just posting to nitpick you, but, uh…okay, I guess I am. :o Thing about the idiot ball and what makes it a nuisance is that it turns _an otherwise intelligent_ character dumb. It makes them act out of character. If the character was _always_ dumb, then that’s just being in character. [And Tsukiko has never been](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html) [the brightest bulb.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0465.html) I totally buy that she wouldn’t have expected Redcloak to actually _do_ anything to her. Heck, when I first saw the previous strip I didn’t even notice he’d cast anything. I had to go back and look once he revealed what he’d done. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3285 "2012-01-24T22:01:43Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > And then Xykon fries him? I wouldn’t automatically assume Xykon would easily win a tussle with Redcloak. Not anymore. And Red is obviously tooling up for a confrontation. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3286 "2012-01-24T22:33:12Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I wouldn’t automatically assume Xykon would easily win a tussle with Redcloak. Not anymore. And Red is obviously tooling up for a confrontation. So why not assume that’s what RC is planning to do? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3287 "2012-01-24T22:41:22Z")
I am so glad I started reading OotS when I did. I have all of the books, which makes me exceedingly happy. The Kickstarter drive to reprint the books looks like it’s going swimmingly. I just pledged $10 so that I can get the O-Chul story and fridge magnet, plus the secret bonus Rich Burlew promised if it hits the next level, which it looks to do sometime in the next few hours. I’m impressed but not surprised by this level of fan support. I hope the comic keeps updating at the present brisk pace, although I could see him taking a breather after this 3-pager. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3288 "2012-01-24T22:50:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Tsukiko never understood the fundamental nature of Team Evil. Hell, I’m not sure she even recognized that they _were_ evil. Look at what she says she expects Xykon to do once he learns that Redcloak is doublecrossing him: she says he’ll _fire_ him. Where does she think they are, TGIFridays? Xykon’s default state is “murder everyone,” and that’s if you haven’t actively pissed him off. She had no idea at all what the stakes were when she confronted Redcloak. She expected him to back down, and slink away in shame. She didn’t realize that there are only two classes of people with Xykon: “perceived asset” and “target,” and what Redcloak would be forced to do if he was in danger of being moved out of that first class. The analogy I was thinking was that Tsukiko was a high school mean girl who had fallen in with a Columbian drug cartel. Of course, she also had the gamer attitude that it’s no big deal if a few hundred NPC’s die while thinking a magic shield protected all the characters with names. Another thing is that Redcloak apparently cast the spell as he entered the room. This was before he had any idea what Tsukiko was going to say. This implies that he’s probably been doing this as a regular practice - get ready to kill Tsukiko if needed and then when he sees she’s still clueless and no threat, release the spell. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3289 "2012-01-24T23:17:30Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So why not assume that’s what RC is planning to do? Because Redcloak can’t bring himself to try and kill Xykon (or even let others kill Xykon), as expounded on in _Start of Darkness_. He could if he let go of all of his Plan baggage. But he won’t, so he can’t. I suspect he’s tooling up in case Xykon attacks _him_. Xykon getting Tsukiko to analyze the ritual must have spooked him some, since it implies what little trust there was between them is on shaky ground. Or perhaps he’s just thinking further ahead to, say, 6 seconds after the ritual is actually cast. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3290 "2012-01-25T00:12:25Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > I wouldn’t automatically assume Xykon would easily win a tussle with Redcloak. Not anymore. And Red is obviously tooling up for a confrontation. Xykon is epic level at this point. I’ve never played D&D, but I have a hard time imagining an epic level character winning a fight with a non-epic character one-on-one, especially since Xykon is so good at killing things. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3291 "2012-01-25T00:15:57Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Because Redcloak can’t bring himself to try and kill Xykon (or even let others kill Xykon), as expounded on in _Start of Darkness_. > He could if he let go of all of his Plan baggage. But he won’t, so he can’t. > > I suspect he’s tooling up in case Xykon attacks _him_. Xykon getting Tsukiko to analyze the ritual must have spooked him some, since it implies what little trust there was between them is on shaky ground. > Or perhaps he’s just thinking further ahead to, say, 6 seconds after the ritual is actually cast. The problem with riding a tiger is that eventually you have to get off. Let me raise some objections to your Plan B, **Kobal2**. 1. Confrontation with Xykon is inevitable, and it may be preferable to postpone till after the Dark One secures the gate, thus a) ensuring the gate is secured in case Xykon wins the confrontation, and b) putting a trump card in the Dark Ones corner which may help during said confrontation. 2. Time is not necessarily on his side. He has tenuously established a (hob)goblin kingdom, which is undoubtedly being advanced on by untold legions of armies of the beautiful races. Securing the gate secures the kingdom, and Xykon is a quicker path than a goblin magic-user to be named later. This is just to point out that there are analytical reasons for RC to continue on course. Of course, it may be a character flaw leading to his decision, as you say. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3292 "2012-01-25T00:16:46Z")
> [@](#): > > Or perhaps he’s just thinking further ahead to, say, 6 seconds after the ritual is actually cast. I’ve been saying for a while that, if they ever get to cast the ritual, it’s his plan to already have up Energy Resistance (Fire), Energy Immunity (Lightning), and Death Ward, with a bunch of Heals and Disintegrates prepared for use in the immediate next round. Yes, Xykon’s overall power is greater than Redcloak’s, but with preparation, Redcloak does actually have what it takes to give Xykon a heck of a fight. This is where being a prepared caster, rather than a sorcerer, comes in handy: Xykon’s options are fixed (and Redcloak knows what all of them are), but Redcloak can customize what he’s good at with a day’s notice. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3293 "2012-01-25T01:03:35Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > Xykon is epic level at this point. I’ve never played D&D, but I have a hard time imagining an epic level character winning a fight with a non-epic character one-on-one, especially since Xykon is so good at killing things. He might be Epic, but not so far into the Epic levels as to be completely off the charts - else he wouldn’t \*need \*the gates, he could basically just force his way into godhood directly. Also he’s blown his Epic spell choices on stuff like Cloister and Superb Dispelling rather than the really ridiculous blast and save-or-die options (at least, that we know of). \*\*Chronos \*\*is absolutely correct: Redcloak knows more or less every spell on Xykon’s limited spell list (Xykon most probably kept one or two up his sleeve just in case) and can protect himself from most of the dangerous ones in advance with magic items (not buffs though, Xykon would just Superb Dispel them). He also knows better than anyone how Xykon battles and can adjust his tactics accordingly (for example, Xykon hasn’t proven to be very good at IDing monsters and their immunities. Redcloak has proven very creative with his summonings). As for actually killing a lich, a cleric is about the best possible class to try and do so - undeads and undead manipulation are their forte, and just as he knows Xykon’s spell list, he knows what magic items and defensive buffs he’s got on, meaning which spells to prepare that would most likely bypass or skirt around them. Here once again, Xykon probably has some stuff under his hat, but still. I wouldn’t call it an automatic victory for peaface, but as of right now if anyone can take out Xykon one on one with any hope to actually win, it’s him. > [@hdc\_bst](#): > > 1. Confrontation with Xykon is inevitable, and it may be preferable to postpone till after the Dark One secures the gate, thus a) ensuring the gate is secured in case Xykon wins the confrontation, and b) putting a trump card in the Dark Ones corner which may help during said confrontation. This hinges on Xykon remaining blissfully unaware of the deception surrounding the ritual. Which seems to be a vanishing proposition these days. Fact is, it’s already something of a miracle that the ruse held on for 30 years. Guess Xykon really \*is \*easily distracted. On top of this, confronting Xykon on familiar ground, backed by an entire kingdom, legions of undead under his command, scores of loyal priests and any number of long term summons he might want to bargain for (or just create - remember the skeleton knight that ripped right through Azure City’s defences ? Good times…) seems more likely to succeed than a duel in the middle of nowhere and without backup. > [@](#): > > 1. Time is not necessarily on his side. He has tenuously established a (hob)goblin kingdom, which is undoubtedly being advanced on by untold legions of armies of the beautiful races. Securing the gate secures the kingdom, and Xykon is a quicker path than a goblin magic-user to be named later. But he’s planning on leaving this infant kingdom to fend for itself to pursue his silly quest. Presumably taking all of the heavy hitters with him no less. If the surrounding kingdoms really are on the warpath, it’s doubtful there will _be_ a Gobbotopia to come back to, even if Core Team Evil doesn’t screw up just short of controlling the fourth gate. Which has been their M.O. so far. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3294 "2012-01-25T01:12:44Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > [QUOTE=The Other Waldo Pepper] > So why not assume that’s what RC is planning to do? Because Redcloak can’t bring himself to try and kill Xykon (or even let others kill Xykon), as expounded on in _Start of Darkness_. He could if he let go of all of his Plan baggage. But he won’t, so he can’t. I suspect he’s tooling up in case Xykon attacks _him_. Xykon getting Tsukiko to analyze the ritual must have spooked him some, since it implies what little trust there was between them is on shaky ground. Or perhaps he’s just thinking further ahead to, say, 6 seconds after the ritual is actually cast. [/QUOTE] That last sentence of yours there was, in fact, exactly what I had in mind by the question you quoted. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3295 "2012-01-25T01:58:09Z")
That’s another thought. Redcloak, as far as I understand, doesn’t care about what personally happens to him. When he joined up with Xykon, it must have seemed like there’s no way things could go wrong, post-Ritual. Even if Xykon killed him, all that means from Reddy’s point of view is that he gets to move in permenantly with the Dark One. Now? Now he’s got a whole goblinoid nation- the Plan fulfilled in miniature- hostage to Xykon’s temper. Unless the Dark One is going to personally strike down Xykon at once when the Ritual’s finished (and as far as I know neither remaining gate is on goblin land\*), Redcloak is going to have to kill Xykon to stop him from atomizing Gobbotopia. \*True, with the Snarl in hand I suppose the Dark One can ignore the rules about non-interference. But he’d have to make quick with the [del]blackmailing[/del] extortioning. I don’t know how long it would take for Xykon to destroy an unsuspecting city and all its inhabitents by himself, but it probably wouldn’t take long. ---
**Author:** ![galen\_ubal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/galen_ubal/32/4440_2.png) [@galen\_ubal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/galen_ubal)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3296 "2012-01-25T02:08:44Z")
Heh. Just had a thought - wouldn’t it be interesting if Xykon had been sitting in there, invisible, the whole time? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3297 "2012-01-25T02:48:27Z")
> [@galen\_ubal](#): > > Heh. Just had a thought - wouldn’t it be interesting if Xykon had been sitting in there, invisible, the whole time? I recall someone (not sure if it was on this forum or another) pointing out that this entire confrontation has been taking place in front of a mirror (complete with reflections, to make it obvious it’s a mirror) , and it would be just like Burlew for it to be a magic mirror with Xykon or someone else watching the whole thing. Although it would _also_ be like him for that not to be revealed until well in the future. Comic #950: Xykon: "Sooooo, Wrong-Eye…about that whole “give the Snarl to the Dark One plan you discussed with Tsukiko before having her wights eat her (good touch by the way); I think we _might_ want to _discuss_ revising it. Now.” ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3298 "2012-01-25T03:20:21Z")
The thing is Xykon has also spent thirty years pursuing the Gates. Unlike Redcloak, he’s been pursuing them for mistken reasons. But suppose he finds out that Redcloak lied to him and the Snarl can’t be controlled. Sure, he can kill Redcloak and a few million goblins. But then what? Without the quest for the power of the Gates, what will Xykon do? Finding out about the hoax will be almost as bad for Xykon as it would be for Redcloak. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3299 "2012-01-25T03:54:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But then what? Without the quest for the power of the Gates, what will Xykon do? Finding out about the hoax will be almost as bad for Xykon as it would be for Redcloak. Well, there’s always killing things. That always cheers him up. He could do it in an ongoing capacity, wandering you could say… 😛 But personally hunting down and extracting vengeance on every last goblinoid out of spite seems more like his style. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3300 "2012-01-25T04:21:10Z")
I think the mirror is just a mirror. It’s there because Rich wanted Redcloak to see his reflection after losing his eye (those who have read _Start of Darkness_ understand why Rich wanted this). But now that it’s established as part of the scenery in Redcloak’s study, it shows up in the background of any scene set in the study. ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 8:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3301 "2012-01-25T08:35:56Z")
Redcloak is really on a roll here - first crushing the resistance, then removinb his thorn in the neck. I wonder will Xkyon try to blackmail the Dark One if he do uncover Redcloak’s plans. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=164) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=166)