# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 187
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3722 "2012-02-23T19:23:51Z")
reasonable points, I suppose. I suppose with wind walk he’d still have a clear idea of direction and distance. I’ve no idea what Phantom Steed is. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3723 "2012-02-23T20:54:13Z")
We also have to remember that the suspicions between the Order of the Scribble already existed. It’s possible that Draketooth was using illusions to conceal the locations of the terrain that Soon and the others saw. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3724 "2012-02-23T20:58:16Z")
An interesting question raised by the old crayon strips. Shojo told the Order of the Stick that the members of the Order of the Scribble never saw each other after their break-up. But we know that isn’t true - Dorukan and Lirian hooked up on a regular basis. Was Shojo unaware of this (in which case, what else was he unaware of?) or did he choose to not tell the Order this (in which case, what else was he concealing?) ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3725 "2012-02-23T21:02:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > An interesting question raised by the old crayon strips. Shojo told the Order of the Stick that the members of the Order of the Scribble never saw each other after their break-up. But we know that isn’t true - Dorukan and Lirian hooked up on a regular basis. Was Shojo unaware of this (in which case, what else was he unaware of?) or did he choose to not tell the Order this (in which case, what else was he concealing?) Soon and his paladins would have taken the oath pretty seriously, so it’s likely that Shojo didn’t know. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3726 "2012-02-23T21:05:56Z")
In 840, Belkar and Durkon are seen in panel 1, but then don’t appear again. What are they up to??? ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3727 "2012-02-23T22:37:02Z")
How should Miko’s afterlife go? I’m undecided between a bureaucratic maze of “she doesn’t belong here, shouldn’t she be one of yours?” and a huge hall of mirrors, to be wandered through until she figures out that it’s not all about her. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3728 "2012-02-23T23:32:29Z")
She’s with Tsukiko on the Plane of Delusional Antagonists. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [February 23, 2012, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3729 "2012-02-23T23:51:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > An interesting question raised by the old crayon strips. Shojo told the Order of the Stick that the members of the Order of the Scribble never saw each other after their break-up. But we know that isn’t true - Dorukan and Lirian hooked up on a regular basis. Was Shojo unaware of this (in which case, what else was he unaware of?) or did he choose to not tell the Order this (in which case, what else was he concealing?) Also, note that Girard and Serini exchanged messages. Speculation - they were lovers. And Elan’s granparents, making him part halfling And I’m sure that Soon didn’t know. As for what else he didn’t know, the Snarl doesn’t act as they thought. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3730 "2012-02-24T00:01:03Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > She’s with Tsukiko on the Plane of Delusional Antagonists. Ooo. I like that. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3731 "2012-02-24T01:22:22Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > I spent most of my gaming time with DMs who had modified the rules, so I don’t know what the official rules are, but in the worlds I played in, clerics could cast spells on the spur of the moment, which meant that they didn’t have to pray for them the night before, so a cleric might decide that he really, really wanted to Animate that dead half-ogre and use it because s/he’s desperate. Now, the clerics had to spend some time each day in meditation and devotions, and had to promote their gods when possible, but the DMs basically said that clerics (and in a couple of cases, mages) could just cast whatever spells they had the power for, they didn’t have to study them beforehand, except in a few rare cases. If the spell called for a material component, the cleric or mage DID need to have it available. I always figured that this was a better system, since the original D&D magic system was based on one series of books, and just about every other magical system allowed spellcasters to cast whatever they knew, if they had the power for it. It must be a common rule mod; every single campaign I was in had it for clerics (but not mages). The rationale was that clerics get their powers from paying to their deities so why not be able to ask for what you need when you need it. I was the main reason I played clerics rather than mages. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3732 "2012-02-24T01:49:58Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > It must be a common rule mod; every single campaign I was in had it for clerics (but not mages). The rationale was that clerics get their powers from paying to their deities so why not be able to ask for what you need when you need it. I was the main reason I played clerics rather than mages. That’s really not a smart idea for a house rule. Prepared spellcasting is the only thing stopping a wizard being a Schrodinger’s wizard (a form of cheating either in a game or in a discussion, in which the wizard just happens to have prepared exactly the right spells). While his spell list is theoretically more focused, A Schrodinger’s cleric has access to every single Cleric spell in the game, not just the ones he’s transcribed to his spellbook. If you want this sort of rule, I’d suggest a 1 minute per spell level delay to prepare an unused spell slot on the fly - spent either poring over their spellbook (for a wizard) or beseeching their deity for aid (for a cleric). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3733 "2012-02-24T02:01:33Z")
If Elan does turn out to be part halfling, I want it to also become canon that Vaarsuvius is part camel. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3734 "2012-02-24T05:04:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That’s really not a smart idea for a house rule. Prepared spellcasting is the only thing stopping a wizard being a Schrodinger’s wizard (a form of cheating either in a game or in a discussion, in which the wizard just happens to have prepared exactly the right spells). While his spell list is theoretically more focused, A Schrodinger’s cleric has access to every single Cleric spell in the game, not just the ones he’s transcribed to his spellbook. > > If you want this sort of rule, I’d suggest a 1 minute per spell level delay to prepare an unused spell slot on the fly - spent either poring over their spellbook (for a wizard) or beseeching their deity for aid (for a cleric). Well, a cleric is limited to the spells that his deity will allow. For instance, my DM had clerics and anticlerics and shamans. Clerics were lawful, and if a spell could be used as healing OR harming, could only cast the healing version…could only cast “cure light wounds” and not “cause light wounds”, for instance. Anti-clerics were chaotic, and could only cast the harm version of those spells. Shamans were neutral, and could cast either version, and I believe (it’s been over 20 years since I’ve played with him) could also use edged weapons…but could not wear armor of any sort. This was also AD&D 2nd ed., before they came out with all the extra spell lists and such. Also, some gods didn’t grant certain spells, depending on what they were the god of. The mages didn’t get to play with the whole spell list, either. The player ROLLED to see whether or not hier mage learned a particular spell or not, so it was entirely possible to have a mage who managed to get to fifth level but couldn’t learn Fireball, for instance. The challenge was to make the best use of the spells that your caster had access to. V. used to get a lot of mileage out of Explosive Runes, for instance. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3735 "2012-02-24T05:34:01Z")
That sounds positively awful to me. Okay, it’s 2nd edition so that’s probably a given, but chaotic clerics being incapable of using healing magic, and not being able to choose what sort of character you want to play (A summoner? Not unless you roll well!) are both indicative of the sort of DM I’d hate to have. ---
**Author:** ![Aestivalis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Aestivalis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aestivalis)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3736 "2012-02-24T06:37:17Z")
[#841](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html) is up. I think it’s safe to say nobody saw that coming. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3737 "2012-02-24T06:50:20Z")
> [@Aestivalis](#): > > I think it’s safe to say nobody saw that coming. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3738 "2012-02-24T07:01:51Z")
> [@Aestivalis](#): > > I think it’s safe to say nobody saw that coming. Well, I saw an illusion coming, so I honestly can’t yet say whether this is that. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3739 "2012-02-24T07:56:28Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > That sounds positively awful to me. Okay, it’s 2nd edition so that’s probably a given, but chaotic clerics being incapable of using healing magic, and not being able to choose what sort of character you want to play (A summoner? Not unless you roll well!) are both indicative of the sort of DM I’d hate to have. The player would choose whether to play a cleric or anti-cleric. And yes, sometimes you don’t get THE particular spell you want, but there were enough spells available that no caster was crippled by not getting a particular spell. There were also magical items available, don’t forget, scrolls and wands and such, even in those Dark Ages. Now PAYING for these things was a different matter. The DM was of the opinion that magical items should be rare and treasured, because they were powerful enough to upset the game world if they were common. The DM also let us know, at the start, that gunpowder didn’t work in his game world. Look, when I was playing D&D/AD&D, we rolled 3d6 six times, and we bloody well made a character out of those rolls. None of that “roll 4d6, drop the low die”. No rerolls, unless we didn’t have a single stat above 14. The DM would allow ONE swap. And we LIKED it like that! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3740 "2012-02-24T07:57:42Z")
Interesting - they all seem to have squiggly face markings like [Girard himself](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html) does. A clan? A cult? Edit: Interesting speculation from the OOTS forum: “Drakestooth” really does mean he’s part dragon, and V killed them all with Familicide. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2012, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3741 "2012-02-24T08:19:36Z")
Somehow I don’t think Draketooth would have had that many grandchildren. And we know that he was alive and not killed by Familicide because he scried on the party after his trap at the bogus location went off. Further, these bodies seem too freshly dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=186) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=188)