# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 197
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3922 "2012-03-05T14:21:40Z")
So either Rich made a mistake, V made a mistake, or in the interpretation of the spell “half-brother” is only one step; as a hypothetical Penelope/Tarquin child should be safe with the more straightforward interpretation of Familicide. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3923 "2012-03-05T14:31:21Z")
I just want to bring this up-doesn’t the spell in question seem awfully high-powered for someone who isn’t at least on the level of a demigod? In other words, I’ve heard the term “entropy” bandied about to describe the level of magic power in a given milieu; given the obvious and terrible power of this spell, I think it is safe to say that the entropy of the Stick universe is pretty damned high. Or am I off-base and/or spouting irrelevancies? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3924 "2012-03-05T14:31:41Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > So either Rich made a mistake, V made a mistake, or in the interpretation of the spell “half-brother” is only one step; as a hypothetical Penelope/Tarquin child should be safe with the more straightforward interpretation of Familicide. Given the interpretation V has assumed I’m surprised he didn’t depopulate the entire continent. Surely the spell would have stopped at Tarquin’s wife and not gone for her cousins etc, or did it work on the relation to the child so uncles, cousins to the child get the chop same as parents and it stops there? ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3925 "2012-03-05T14:34:04Z")
And the family in panel 3 only really makes sense as a different line from the dragon, not as a Draketooth offshoot ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3926 "2012-03-05T14:58:51Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I just want to bring this up-doesn’t the spell in question seem awfully high-powered for someone who isn’t at least on the level of a demigod? In other words, I’ve heard the term “entropy” bandied about to describe the level of magic power in a given milieu; given the obvious and terrible power of this spell, I think it is safe to say that the entropy of the Stick universe is pretty damned high. Or am I off-base and/or spouting irrelevancies? Chances are the necromancer spirit who cast the spell was at least as powerful as a demigod. She was supposedly the most powerful of the three by far, and one of the other two was said to be the Terror of a Thousand Planes who teleported vast armies to conquer world after world. I’m not sure there is an upper limit to the power spellcasters can obtain in DnD. It’s possible for mortals to even become or replace gods after all. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3927 "2012-03-05T15:58:17Z")
Some idle observation: The last comic wasn’t the only one titled “All in the Family” - [#681](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0681.html) was as well. And given that in that one Haley’s dad says > [@](#): > > You can’t trust anyone but family, Pumpkin and given their hair color, one would half-expect them to be part of the family Draketooth. Good thing they weren’t, in hindsight. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3928 "2012-03-05T17:51:04Z")
Epic spells tended to be stupidly broken or stupidly underpowered, with no in-between, but _Familicide_ looks to be well on the stupidly broken side: it apparently allowed no saves. In all of the depictions of it’s effects we’ve seen, _none_ of the victims survived. None of the Draketooths appear to have survived. Even though some of the dragons slain seem to have been higher age category, and some of the Draketooths seem to have been fairly high level illusionists. Save-or-die was overpowered in 3.0/3.5, but this seems to have been “no save, just die”. Regardless of what her caster level was, that’s cheesily broken. (which is probably accurate for what would have come out of using the epic rules to create a homebrewed epic spell.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3929 "2012-03-05T18:02:28Z")
Right, and dragons have insanely high saves. But even twisting the epic spell creation rules to their limit, it would require an inconceivable level of power to pull off something like Familicide. And I say that as someone who can conceive of an awful lot of power. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3930 "2012-03-05T18:27:30Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Epic spells tended to be stupidly broken or stupidly underpowered, with no in-between, but _Familicide_ looks to be well on the stupidly broken side: it apparently allowed no saves. As an epic spell, the save may well have had a ridiculously high DC; even making a save (for damage) might have resulted in enough damage to kill, and illusionists aren’t noted for high hit points. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3931 "2012-03-05T18:32:36Z")
That spell might be the evilest thing anyone has done so far in the story. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3932 "2012-03-05T18:36:52Z")
If Haerta had enough necromantic juju to pull that off, how’d she end up dead? ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3933 "2012-03-05T18:40:11Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Save-or-die was overpowered in 3.0/3.5, but this seems to have been “no save, just die”. Regardless of what her caster level was, that’s cheesily broken. (which is probably accurate for what would have come out of using the epic rules to create a homebrewed epic spell.) Isn’t that the same as Implosion, though? No save, just die. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3934 "2012-03-05T18:47:00Z")
Implosion permits a Fortitude save. ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3935 "2012-03-05T18:48:21Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > If Haerta had enough necromantic juju to pull that off, how’d she end up dead? I like the theory that she cast it on someone who she didn’t realize she was distantly related to. Woops! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3936 "2012-03-05T18:57:32Z")
Or even that she _did_ know she was related to, but that she put mass killing at a higher priority than her own life. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3937 "2012-03-05T19:00:04Z")
I’m hoping that V isn’t actually hurt - another afterlife digression at this point will be very trying… ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3938 "2012-03-05T19:06:16Z")
Well, V’s effective caster level was so high that I have to assume that any save would need to be insanely high. Still, it seems that few or no dragons made that save, so I think we have to assume that the saves, if any, were few and far between. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3939 "2012-03-05T19:25:15Z")
Even if the save DC is ten quantilion, you automatically succeed a save on a natural twenty. So one in twenty dragons, humans, and bunnies will automatically save against any spell. There are a number of ways that Familicide could overcome this: 1. No save, just die. This means the Spellcraft check to cast the spell would be ridiculously high, but thanks to certain mitigation factors (Like, say Plot: -1000 to DC) is still possible. 2. Save or die; take X damage on a successful save, where X is high enough to kill most things anyways. 3. Familycide actually casts the Save or Die effect multiple times on each target, and in order to live, the target has to make all the saves. If there are two Save or Die effects and the DC is high enough that you must roll a twenty, that means one in four hundred targets will survive. If there are three saves, only one in eight thousand targets will survive. If the spell casts its save or die effect enough times, than even if the DC is so low that only a natural one would fail, it could still achieve results. Number 3 seems the most likely. We haven’t seen more than four hundred targets die so far; if the spell makes each enemy make three saves, then it would be expected that none would survive. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3940 "2012-03-05T20:03:19Z")
Caster level isn’t relevant for saving throws (though it _is_ relevant for spell resistance, which would ordinarily also be an issue for taking out dragons). By default, the save DC for an epic spell would be 20 plus the caster’s relevant ability modifier (Int for wizards), though you could increase that at the cost of making it more difficult to cast. And it’s also unclear whether it would use Vaarsuvius’ Int or Haerta’s, which might also be incredibly high, and she probably also has feats and such to increase the DC further. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3941 "2012-03-05T20:20:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There are a number of ways that Familicide could overcome this: 1. If Familicide is based on _[Power Word Kill](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm)_, have sufficient HP that it won’t affect you. Illusionists aren’t known for their high HPs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=196) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=198)