# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 198
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3942 "2012-03-05T20:21:07Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > If Haerta had enough necromantic juju to pull that off, how’d she end up dead? There’s always someone more powerful. That’s just how settings like these tend to work. The Lady of Pain in the Planescape setting killed a greater diety effortlessly for example. Someone powerful enough to kill Haerta could also be powerful enough to deal with any backup plans she had. I like the idea of her getting killed by her own familicide a lot, though. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3943 "2012-03-05T20:41:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > 1. If Familicide is based on _[Power Word Kill](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/powerWordKill.htm)_, have sufficient HP that it won’t affect you. Illusionists aren’t known for their high HPs. But Black Dragons are. A Juvenile Black Dragon has 110 hit points, and is at the large end of Medium, meaning he’s smaller than a horse. The oldest dragons we saw die were about the same size as V’s opponent dragon, making them Adults. This puts them at 199 hit points. Now, Power Word Kill is a 9th level spell, while Slay Living is only 5th level. Epic levels are based on seeds; Familicide seems to be a combination of the [Slay](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/slay.htm) seed, which works just like Slay Living, and one of the divination seeds (Probably [Reveal](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/reveal.htm)). You’d use Reveal to find all of the target’s family members, and Slay to kill them. Slay uses a Fortitude save or deals 3d6+20 damage, and effects 80 HD at its base. More can be added by raising the Spellcraft DC to cast it. I think the most likely explanation is that Familicide first uses the Reveal seed to find every eligible target and then slays them. The number of HD available would be something ridiculous. An Adult Black Dragon has 13 HD. The average human has 1. If the spell can kill a thousand or two HD, you’d get multiple castings of Slay on every target, thus ensuring that they all fail. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3944 "2012-03-05T20:49:22Z")
I see Belkar still had Mr. Scruffy pooping on the kobold. Say… If V is knocked unconscious, does the kobold get released from his mental domination? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3945 "2012-03-05T20:52:54Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I was trying to figure out why you’d need the whamming thing when you already had a trapdoor. Best I can figure is that for dramatic purposes the bird needed to fall into the trap too. Levitate spells and effects are pretty common. I think the stomper is there to make sure any floating people get shoved in the pit, too. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3946 "2012-03-05T20:56:41Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Levitate spells and effects are pretty common. I think the stomper is there to make sure any floating people get shoved in the pit, too. ‘click’ How does a flying critter trigger the trap? It looked like V stepped on a trigger. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3947 "2012-03-05T20:57:43Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I see Belkar still had Mr. Scruffy pooping on the kobold. > > Say… If V is knocked unconscious, does the kobold get released from his mental domination? I think Belkar was assuming that Vaarsuvius really needed to poop. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3948 "2012-03-05T21:16:50Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > ‘click’ > > How does a flying critter trigger the trap? It looked like V stepped on a trigger. As seen in the comic, the trap can get more than one person at a go - V was walking, his familiar was flying, trap gets them both. A solid knock to the top of the skull would also be effective in preventing a caster from getting off a Featherfall spell. And it likely raises the over all DC of the trap, making it less likely that a thief could use Evasion to jump out of the way. If nothing else, anyone dangling from the lip of the pit by their fingers is going to have a hard time counting to ten from now on. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3949 "2012-03-05T21:32:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As seen in the comic, the trap can get more than one person at a go - V was walking, his familiar was flying, trap gets them both. A solid knock to the top of the skull would also be effective in preventing a caster from getting off a Featherfall spell. And it likely raises the over all DC of the trap, making it less likely that a thief could use Evasion to jump out of the way. If nothing else, anyone dangling from the lip of the pit by their fingers is going to have a hard time counting to ten from now on. I was thinking a solo intruder, flying. I guess someone in a wizards posse would be walking. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3950 "2012-03-05T21:34:16Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > I think Belkar was assuming that Vaarsuvius really needed to poop. Heh. “Elves are so uptight, they only poop once a year.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3951 "2012-03-05T21:37:42Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > But Black Dragons are. A Juvenile Black Dragon has 110 hit points, and is at the large end of Medium, meaning he’s smaller than a horse. The oldest dragons we saw die were about the same size as V’s opponent dragon, making them Adults. This puts them at 199 hit points. Now, Power Word Kill is a 9th level spell, while Slay Living is only 5th level. > > Epic levels are based on seeds; Familicide seems to be a combination of the [Slay](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/slay.htm) seed, which works just like Slay Living, and one of the divination seeds (Probably [Reveal](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/reveal.htm)). You’d use Reveal to find all of the target’s family members, and Slay to kill them. So you increase the DC by 21 to emulate Power Word Kill, and then increase the DC appropriately to increase the maximum HP affected. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3952 "2012-03-06T01:49:07Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Epic spells tended to be stupidly broken or stupidly underpowered, with no in-between, but _Familicide_ looks to be well on the stupidly broken side: it apparently allowed no saves. > > In all of the depictions of it’s effects we’ve seen, _none_ of the victims survived. None of the Draketooths appear to have survived. Even though some of the dragons slain seem to have been higher age category, and some of the Draketooths seem to have been fairly high level illusionists. > > Save-or-die was overpowered in 3.0/3.5, but this seems to have been “no save, just die”. Regardless of what her caster level was, that’s cheesily broken. (which is probably accurate for what would have come out of using the epic rules to create a homebrewed epic spell.) The reason I mentioned it is that my suspension of disbelief is tottering just a little. I don’t remember what strip number illustrated the casting in question so I can go back and check the details. Yeah yeah I know, it’s a fantasy world, so alledgedly anything goes; the problem is if anything goes, a lot of the tension goes too, since any limits on power act as a device to ensure that solutions to problems (which can include spells) don’t just boil down to who has the most raw power and it devolves down to just a simple matter of nuke or be nuked. ---
**Author:** ![Lightray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightray/32/391_2.png) [@Lightray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightray)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3953 "2012-03-06T02:31:21Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > The reason I mentioned it is that my suspension of disbelief is tottering just a little… Well, as I alluded to… Epic play was where suspension of disbelief effectively broke for _my_ gaming group. Not that we really played much 3.5\*. But that was the point where we all basically stared stupidly at the book in disbelief. And went on to a rockin’ L5R game. Nuke or be nuked basically _was_ the 3.0/3.5 high-level paradigm. - No one had the insane amount of free time needed to DM, what with the craziness of statting up even low-level opponents. Epic? sheeyeah, wasn’t happenin’. ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3954 "2012-03-06T03:10:43Z")
I had a dream- I think last night- that V immediately got down on hir knees and confessed everything to hir teammates. I guess not. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3955 "2012-03-06T16:54:27Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > Well, as I alluded to… Epic play was where suspension of disbelief effectively broke for _my_ gaming group. Not that we really played much 3.5\*. But that was the point where we all basically stared stupidly at the book in disbelief. To see an epic campaign done well look ye [here](http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=86306) and [here](http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=130712) for the story with discussion or [here](http://www.enworld.org/showthread?t=58227) for the summary, and [here](http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=5652) (particularly [this post](http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=5652&page=63#post5380628)) for the crunch. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3956 "2012-03-06T17:20:50Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Say… If V is knocked unconscious, does the kobold get released from his mental domination? No one has answered this yet and I would like to know. Also, why is Belkar so blood thirsty? As I’ve said my knowledge of all things D&D is limited, but my understanding has been that halflings/hobbits were peaceful and good people. Thanks for answering my questions. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3957 "2012-03-06T17:37:28Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > Also, why is Belkar so blood thirsty? As I’ve said my knowledge of all things D&D is limited, but my understanding has been that halflings/hobbits were peaceful and good people. That’s the joke. Just like Roy is a giant-sword-swinging Fighter who’s possibly the most intelligent member of the group, rather than being a dumb grunt. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3958 "2012-03-06T18:06:02Z")
> [@Foggy](#): > > Also, why is Belkar so blood thirsty? As I’ve said my knowledge of all things D&D is limited, but my understanding has been that halflings/hobbits were peaceful and good people. I don’t think it’s ever been explained. It’s certainly been [lampshaded](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html) at least once. “The angel … doesn’t work here any more.” “… and he kept stabbing them, again and again … He’s a halfling, he’s supposed to be jolly … Why isn’t he jolly? WHY ISN’T HE JOLLY???” ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3959 "2012-03-06T18:18:26Z")
I know this has nothing to do with the current discussion, but was there ever any consensus as to what the piece of paper was that the archon was trying to hand Roy as he was leaving Celestia? He ignored it but I imagine it’s going to turn up later on. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3960 "2012-03-06T18:22:42Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > I know this has nothing to do with the current discussion, but was there ever any consensus as to what the piece of paper was that the archon was trying to hand Roy as he was leaving Celestia? He ignored it but I imagine it’s going to turn up later on. Actually, I think it’s rather relevant right now, since I’m pretty sure the archon was trying to warn him about V’s evil actions while in the soul splice. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2012, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3961 "2012-03-06T18:27:09Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > I know this has nothing to do with the current discussion, but was there ever any consensus as to what the piece of paper was that the archon was trying to hand Roy as he was leaving Celestia? He ignored it but I imagine it’s going to turn up later on. Given that [the archon handed it to Eugene and told him what it was](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0664.html), I think there’s a pretty good consensus. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=197) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=199)