# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 200
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3982 "2012-03-07T14:18:31Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > That’s something I never really thought about…relative time factors. If someone on the Prime scried the Astral, would everything just look like a still photo because time runs soooo slooooowwwwwlllllllllyyyyyy there? And if you went the other direction, scrying the Prime from the Astral, would everything just be an indiscriminate blur because everything is moving so quickly? No. Time passes at the same speed on the Astral plane, you just don’t grow old and die there. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3983 "2012-03-07T15:35:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > No. Time passes at the same speed on the Astral plane, you just don’t grow old and die there. No. [There is no time](http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Plane_Descriptions_%28Rules%29#THE_ASTRAL_PLANE) on the Astral plane (in 3.5). ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3984 "2012-03-07T15:40:37Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Eugene has been using [an epic scrying pool](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html)–he can see through the Cloister effect with it. He should also have been able to watch Xykon in the Astral, building his fortress. > > As for why he hasn’t notified Roy–remember that Eugene is ultimately selfish; all he cares about in the current situation is Xykon’s destruction. As long as the phylactery was lost, that was impossible–even if Roy could have gotten the party to Xykon’s fortress and given him a beatdown away from his allies, he would just have regenerated. Since it wouldn’t further Eugene’s goals, he may not have seen any reason to tell Roy about it. Worse, if he wasn’t watching when Redcloak pulled the switcheroo, he may believe the real phylactery is in the fortress and end up sending the Order off on a wild goose chase. D’oh! And here I thought I’d stumbled on something important! I totally agree that failing to follow the agreement he made with Roy is very much in character for Eugene. I can see him arguing “Well, I _said_ that you would be the first to know. I never said that I’d tell you right away.” [QUOTE=Little Nemo] I think it goes beyond mere indifference. Eugene actually wants Roy to fail. He spent his entire life arguing his father and his son about the superiority of magic over combat. (And it went both ways. For a large part of the story, Roy was trying to kill Xykon just to prove his father wrong rather than due to any higher motive.) Roy eventually got over this and realized the struggle was over more important stakes than a father-son conflict. But Eugene hasn’t done that. He still feels the important issue is proving he’s right that magic is more powerful than combat. If Roy beats Xykon, Eugene would be forced to admit he had been wrong all his life. So he’d rather see Xykon win than see him beaten by non-magical means. [/QUOTE] Not sure I agree with this. Eugene is a selfish prick, but I think that he would rather that Roy succeed so he can get onto the mountain already. I’m sure that he would prefer that Xykon be defeated by a spellcaster, but he could easily handwave that Roy would never have succeeded without the help he received from countless casters throughout the series (including Eugene himself). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3985 "2012-03-07T18:31:24Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Not sure I agree with this. Eugene is a selfish prick, but I think that he would rather that Roy succeed so he can get onto the mountain already. I’m sure that he would prefer that Xykon be defeated by a spellcaster, but he could easily handwave that Roy would never have succeeded without the help he received from countless casters throughout the series (including Eugene himself). He’s dead so he’s got nothing but time. I think he’d rather wait a century or two for one of his magic-using descendants to do the job the “right way” than spend the rest of eternity knowing he was wrong. But on the subject of Blood Oaths, how do they work exactly? Does it have to be a family member fulfilling the oath for it to free Eugene? Suppose Soon had succeeded in killing Xykon? Would Eugene have been freed because Xykon was dead or would he have been stuck for eternity because there was now no possibility of one of his family members killing Xykon? And does it have to be a descendant of the original oath taker or just a family member? If somebody made the oath and then died childless would their closest relative be stuck with the oath? ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3986 "2012-03-07T19:20:29Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > Not sure I agree with this. Eugene is a selfish prick, but I think that he would rather that Roy succeed so he can get onto the mountain already. No way is Eugene EVER getting on THAT mountain. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3987 "2012-03-07T19:52:28Z")
A wild prediction: whenever the Order does destroy Xykons body, they’ll wonder aloud about how long before he returns. Then Red Cloak will say, “Never,” pull out the real phylactery, and destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3988 "2012-03-07T20:00:19Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > No way is Eugene EVER getting on THAT mountain. Hey, if Mahlhevik gets a chance, Eugene should… > [@3rd Ed Manual of the Planes](#): > > Castle Mahlhevik: The wonders of Lunia offer much, even for a chaotic evil wizard committed to learning the paths of goodness. Calling in favors from various demideities and revealing his sincerity to highly placed archons, the wizard Mahlhevik built his castle on the shore of the Silver Sea in peace. While he’s sincerely attempting to reform, he’s got a long way to go, and retains many instincts and notions of his former lifestyle. Mahlhevik welcomes visitors and allows travelers of any alignment to stay in Castle Mahlhevik. Some of Mahlhevik’s “old friends” such as Sytris, once called the Soul Reaver, and Japheth, formerly known as Lifeleech, visit from time to time. Arriving onto the plane waist deep in the holy water of the Silver Sea has a way of scarring and frightening away Mahlhevik’s old friends, so they don’t visit often. Interesting trades and even more interesting stories can be had at Mahlhevik’s castle, and travelers who don’t want to deal directly with archons regard it a good place to stay. Lunia being the base of Mt. Celestia, or the “1st Heaven” (of the “7 Heavens” of Old-School). ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3989 "2012-03-08T14:47:06Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > No way is Eugene EVER getting on THAT mountain. When interviewing Roy, the deva does [mention](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) that such interviews are standard procedure regardless of other circumstances. So presumably, Eugene has already had his interview with the deva (who no doubt had some things to say about his ego and the way he treats his family), and that it was ultimately decided that he would be allowed into the Celestial Realm once the Blood Oath was fulfilled. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3990 "2012-03-08T14:59:53Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > When interviewing Roy, the deva does [mention](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0490.html) that such interviews are standard procedure regardless of other circumstances. > > So presumably, Eugene has already had his interview with the deva (who no doubt had some things to say about his ego and the way he treats his family), and that it was ultimately decided that he would be allowed into the Celestial Realm once the Blood Oath was fulfilled. “A” Celestial realm maybe, no way is Eugene going to LG heaven. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3991 "2012-03-08T15:05:29Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > So presumably, Eugene has already had his interview with the deva (who no doubt had some things to say about his ego and the way he treats his family), and that it was ultimately decided that he would be allowed into the Celestial Realm once the Blood Oath was fulfilled. We see Eugene’s post-mortem interview at the end of _Start of Darkness_. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3992 "2012-03-08T15:09:10Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > We see Eugene’s post-mortem interview at the end of _Start of Darkness_. Ah, I’ve read SoD but I completely forgot about that part. I’ll pick it up again tonight and read that part again. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3993 "2012-03-08T17:21:32Z")
But, Burlew has chimed in on what [Familicide does and does not do](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12856280&postcount=1034). Gotta’ say, that spell is ridiculously overpowered, and for me, pretty immersion breaking. Even knowing ahead of time that Epic magic tended to be very broken. Didn’t someone at the GiDP forums calculate that the Spellcraft DC for Familicide had to be somewhere in the neighborhood of several hundred? His defensiveness at being confronted with the implications of his idea is unfortunate too. He wouldn’t be the first fantasy/sci-fi author to drop a Big Idea into their work and not anticipate all of the implications or effects, though. And even after reading his post, I’m _ **still** _ not sure whether Tarquin and all of Tarquin’s relatives would’ve been snuffed if Tarquin and Penelope had a kid. Hopefully we can get on with the main plot soon. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3994 "2012-03-08T18:06:03Z")
It would be game-breaking, if OOTS were a game. It’s not. It’s fantasy literature, a genre with a long history of immensely powerful destructive spells. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3995 "2012-03-08T18:32:44Z")
Even IN a D&D game, if the DM makes a goof, just roll with it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3996 "2012-03-08T18:39:20Z")
OK, that’s mostly less powerful than I had imagined it, though more powerful in some ways. And Rich does have a good point that this is a young world created already populated (meaning you can have individuals of a species who are literally not related at all), which would also limit the damage done. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3997 "2012-03-08T19:47:47Z")
This little detail: > [@](#): > > any and all **still-living** ancestors of each secondary target makes it not quite as bad as I thought, so I’m cool with it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2012, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3998 "2012-03-08T23:42:10Z")
I still think the Giant has made a mistake with his explanations. However I’m happy to pretend that the death toll, whatever it is, meshes with V’s interpretations of the spell. After all, the basic plot elements as we have seen (death of DTs and Penelope) fit fine within the realms of the non kill-everybody-in -the-world interpretation. If other deaths become important plotwise later I’m also happy to accept them becase of y’know _waves hand_ ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/3999 "2012-03-09T00:22:05Z")
I think this is one of those cases where we can just say that a wizard did it. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4000 "2012-03-09T02:37:46Z")
> [@The Giant](#): > > Second, as the author, I also had an interest in not necessarily giving away the twist that the Draketooths would be killed two years ahead of time (leading me to choose words that maybe implied one thing while allowing for another). I know that webcomics run over a long time in real life vs. story time, but it always seems shocking when someone actually points it out. I mean, two years?! Since only the assault on Xykon’s tower? That seems unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4001 "2012-03-09T03:02:11Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > I know that webcomics run over a long time in real life vs. story time, but it always seems shocking when someone actually points it out. I mean, two years?! Since only the assault on Xykon’s tower? That seems unbelievable. Even more unbelievably, it’s actually been three years. [Here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=504715)’s the thread that part of the story was discussed. The day of the strip with the familicide was [March 20th, 2009](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10955212&postcount=302). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=199) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=201)