# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 234
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4662 "2012-08-31T20:59:01Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [In this strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0822.html), he mentions “getting his axe out of storage for the occasion.” So it appears to be an item he places a certain amount of personal value on - plus, it’s almost certainly hugely enchanted. There’s also a pic of Classic Tarquin holding the same axe in [#725](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), when he’s remembering how he first conquered the kingdom. So, he’s had it for quite a while. ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4663 "2012-08-31T21:08:37Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > The OOTS forums seem to think that he’s [demonstrated](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0850.html) the Epic Skill [Stand on Mount](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#standonMount). There’s nothing particularly special about an epic use of a skill. Any creature can perform those tricks by making a skill check of the listed DC; 40 for Stand On Mount. That means at least a +20 modifier, or more if you want to be able to do it reliably (you require a +39 modifier to do it every time). But a high-level fighter should have some chance of pulling it off. ---
**Author:** ![Strassia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e8c25b/32.png) [@Strassia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strassia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4664 "2012-08-31T21:28:12Z")
> [@Max\_Torque](#): > > There’s also a pic of Classic Tarquin holding the same axe in [#725](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html), when he’s remembering how he first conquered the kingdom. So, he’s had it for quite a while. The ax in that comic does not have the glowing red runes that the current ax has. It could still be the same ax, it just know has added enchantment. Which probably means that enchantment is significant to the story line. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4665 "2012-08-31T21:36:28Z")
> [@MHaye](#): > > There’s nothing particularly special about an epic use of a skill. Any creature can perform those tricks by making a skill check of the listed DC; 40 for Stand On Mount. That means at least a +20 modifier, or more if you want to be able to do it reliably (you require a +39 modifier to do it every time). But a high-level fighter should have some chance of pulling it off. > [@Strassia](#): > > The ax in that comic does not have the glowing red runes that the current ax has. It could still be the same ax, it just know has added enchantment. Which probably means that enchantment is significant to the story line. **MHaye** , I didn’t realize that about the use of epic skills. However, considering T was many feet up in the air when he was standing on the pterosaur, I’d think he’d want to be _really_ certain that he could make the DC… (Don’t know why I would worry though; dude would have just used his Backscratcher of Feather Fall if he fell anyway…) It just seems like such a random place to stick skill points, for someone we didn’t even know could ride until the pterosaur scene. Maybe T’s prestige class grants him gobs of skill points and he just had nowhere else to put them? But the more I think about it, the more I think he’s quite a bit above the Order’s level. **Strassia** , has anyone blown up the runes on the ax and tried to decipher them? I’ve talked about it before, but I can’t see the runes well enough on my monitor. Maybe the book version of the strips will reveal some Easter Egg? I thought they were Dark Rune for “Vorpal”, in the same way the “Turbo” badge is so prominent on Porsches… ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2012, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4666 "2012-08-31T22:50:23Z")
I still think Tarquin might be a Factotum. It’s a base class that focuses on using Int to do anything, it’s in keeping with his son’s choices of Bard and Rogue/Sorcerer/Fighter, and it’s from a book Burlew helped write. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4667 "2012-09-01T01:47:54Z")
No way. He’s a 1e Bard. … which should terrify anyone who knows what that means. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4668 "2012-09-01T02:09:33Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > No way. He’s a 1e Bard. > > … which should terrify anyone who knows what that means. He’s a druidic spellcaster who may only use club, dagger, dart, javelin, sling, spear, staff, or sword – never an axe? He’s forbidden from wearing any armor heavier than leather, unless it’s magical chainmail – and the use of a shield is right out? That doesn’t sound especially terrifying, or especially Tarquin-esque. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4669 "2012-09-01T06:42:31Z")
I very much doubt that Tarquin is epic. We haven’t seen Malack cast spells above 6th level (Harm is 6th, as is Quickened Inflict Moderate Wounds). Malack was doing his best to one-shot Nale, had he had 7th level spells, he would have used Destruction (Nale must roll a save or be killed and his remains destroyed). I find it likely that Harm was the most powerful spell available to him. Malack probably didn’t have any combat spells prepared, considering he was planning on hanging around the palace all day. That would explain why Malack cast Harm; he can spontaneously convert any spell to Harms or Inflicts. While the 5th level spell Slay Living would have been a better path to Nale’s destruction, it’s possible Malack didn’t have it prepared (His domains are almost certainly Death and Destruction, so he would have had Slay Living or Inflict Light Wounds, Mass prepared in his domain slot. I guess he chose ILW,M). OTOH, if he had access to 7th level spells, he would have had Destruction (Death domain) or Disintegrate (Destruction domain) prepared. Either one of those would be a better choice than Harm, as it would kill Nale outright. So Malack is likely level 11 or 12, just short of being able to cast 7th level spells. Durkon is level 13 or 14, likely 14, since he tried to cast Holy Word (a 7th level spell) as far back as the Orcish island. Roy is probably level 14 or so. Tarquin is able to defeat the Order, but that’s not necessarily just because of his level. Owning a kingdom (or 3) allows him to pretty much piss on the Wealth by Level rules. He can have equipment worthy of a level 20 fighter, even if he’s only level 5. It’s likely that there is a gap between him and Malack, since he conquered a kingdom without the rest of his party. So I’d put Tarquin at level 16-17, Malack at 12, and the Order at around 14. In D&D, a 3 level difference can be huge. Especially with casters, but even among melee fighters. And even more so if Tarquin ignores Wealth by Level. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4670 "2012-09-01T06:57:37Z")
(Missed edit window) EDIT: I also don’t think Xykon is as high a level as some of you seem to think. His highest level spell cast on screen is Maximized Energy Drain, a 12th level spell slot. So he needs to have: 1. The Epic Spellcasting feat 2. Improved Spell Capacity (10th Level) 3. Improved Spell Capacity (11th Level) 4. Improved Spell Capacity (12th Level) This would mean he got an Epic feat at 21, 24, 27, and 30. HOWEVER. There are other ways he can cast Maximized Energy Drain: 1. If he’s level 21, he could have used a Greater Rod of Metamagic (Maximize) to Maximize 3 spells free every day. Might be unreasonable because we don’t see a rod. 2. He could be level 27 and have taken Arcane Thesis (Energy Drain) to get metamagiced Energy Drains to take a slot 1 level lower. Considering how Energy Drain is his signature spell, this is certainly possible. However, we have evidence that Xykon isn’t this high level, such as the silver dragon in the bonus strips. 3. Most likely of all, and this one doesn’t even require him to be Epic: Sudden Maximize. Once per day, Xykon can maximize a spell free of charge. Until we see Xykon cast two Maximized 9th level spells in one day, this is my theory. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4671 "2012-09-01T08:11:14Z")
Y’know, the Order still hasn’t seen Malack, and hasn’t identified who’s behind the helmet (aside from the fact that it’s not Thog), but Kilkil was one of those who teleported out just now, and if Roy and Durkon noticed that, it’s not too far of a leap in logic for them to realize who the other two members are. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4672 "2012-09-01T09:21:55Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > (Missed edit window) > EDIT: I also don’t think Xykon is as high a level as some of you seem to think. His highest level spell cast on screen is Maximized Energy Drain, a 12th level spell slot. So he needs to have: > > 1. The Epic Spellcasting feat > 2. Improved Spell Capacity (10th Level) > 3. Improved Spell Capacity (11th Level) > 4. Improved Spell Capacity (12th Level) > > This would mean he got an Epic feat at 21, 24, 27, and 30. Sorcerors get feats at levels 22 and 26, so he only needs to be level 26. I really don’t see why people have such a problem with epic levels. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4673 "2012-09-01T15:11:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Jophiel** : > > Also, those who owned the Unearthed Arcana probably remember that it was bound using pixie dreams and unicorn breath. Ah, so _that’s_ where you get those fancy components you needed for making magic items! And Xykon’s level has been the subject of much very contentious debate over on the GiantITP boards, so much so that the Class and Level Geekery thread was shut down by the mods for about a month to let everyone cool off. But to summarize: Everyone agrees that he’s over 20, but disagree on just how much over 20. There’s circumstantial evidence that suggests he’s closer to 30 than to 20, but nobody can find anything that conclusively proves it, and nobody can agree on which assumptions are most Occamic. And there’s also circumstantial evidence for the lower end of epic, too. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4674 "2012-09-02T02:20:27Z")
Myself, I’ve always found it amusing that people argue about who’s at what level when it can never really be conclusively proven, and it’s a work of fiction rather than an actual in-progress roleplaying game. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4675 "2012-09-02T02:36:57Z")
Apparently, Rich Burlew is a gamer and works hard on trying to make the strip match ‘real-world’ gaming convention based upon AD&D 3.5. So it becomes something of a challenge for the fans to determine levels, stats and skills of the various characters. Personally, I think it is fascinating to watch people figure things out, even when they end up being wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4676 "2012-09-02T03:20:24Z")
No, he has never tried to follow the rules. A few quotes: > [@](#): > > [My Questions I Hope Someone Knows The Answears On](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8264182&postcount=6) > I promise you I have never EVER spent one moment trying to write down the Order’s stats. Everything is up in the air, all of the time, until I need to give them a specific ability. > > And then I promptly forget that I gave it to them a week later. > [@](#): > > [What's Redcloak's 2nd Level-9-Spell - Page 2](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12511062&postcount=59) > As was pointed out, I don’t always follow the rules…including the rules on what things are named. > [@](#): > > [Slight Confusion](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11664910&postcount=11) > If you are looking for moment-to-moment rules accuracy from this comic, you probably should stop reading. You are guaranteed to be continually frustrated and disappointed, because I don’t care about that at all. > [@](#): > > [Tsukiko's Prohibited Schools? - Page 2](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11637535&postcount=35) > The only things I feel less bound by than the rules are common player trends. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2012, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4677 "2012-09-02T03:40:48Z")
Golly, I guess I was wrong. Ignorance fought successfully. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4678 "2012-09-03T02:41:12Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > He’s a druidic spellcaster who may only use club, dagger, dart, javelin, sling, spear, staff, or sword – never an axe? He’s forbidden from wearing any armor heavier than leather, unless it’s magical chainmail – and the use of a shield is right out? That doesn’t sound especially terrifying, or especially Tarquin-esque. No, no. Bards in 1e, because of the nature of dual classing, have the abilities of a fighter, a thief, and a druid. Remember? It’d fit with Nale and Elan’s varying concepts of doing the same thing. And once he passes his fighter and thief levels as a druid, he has full access to his fighter and thief abilities. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4679 "2012-09-03T15:32:12Z")
Burlew _says_ that he doesn’t pay attention to his characters’ exact stats, but if that’s true, then he’s done a remarkably lucky job of avoiding accidental contradictions, under the watchful eye of dozens of Internet nerd gaming rules lawyers. Sure, there have been a few, but only a few. I think it far more likely that he _does_ have character sheets for them, and that he just made that statement in case he needs to retcon something: He follows the rules, he’s just not shackled to them. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4680 "2012-09-03T16:36:41Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Sorcerors get feats at levels 22 and 26, so he only needs to be level 26. > > I really don’t see why people have such a problem with epic levels. [“Gods, doesn’t anyone know the epic rules around here?”](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0532.html) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4681 "2012-09-03T16:41:18Z")
I’ll admit I only recently realized the real meaning of Dorukan’s Cloister spell. Dorukan was as suspicious as Girard. The Cloister spell was aimed at Soon and Girard. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=233) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=235)