# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 236
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4702 "2012-09-05T00:01:16Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > One thing, thinking about Tarquin as a Bard, (Not that I think that he is, but playing with the idea.) if you ported a 1e Bard to 3.5, would he be able to count all of his Fighter and Thief, ahem, Rogue levels towards skill points? Also – since 1e Bards weren’t allowed to be Lawful Evil – how soon after arriving in 3.5 could he finally switch to Tarquin’s alignment of choice? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malleus_incus_stapes/32/3293_2.png) [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malleus_Incus_Stapes)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4703 "2012-09-05T01:05:07Z")
I thought bards in general couldn’t be lawful. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2012, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4704 "2012-09-05T01:15:25Z")
> [@Malleus\_Incus\_Stapes](#): > > I thought bards in general couldn’t be lawful. In 3e, yep. In 1e (and 2e, for that matter), they could be Lawful Neutral. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2012, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4705 "2012-09-06T13:59:29Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the other hand, only fighters got full benefit of the con bonus to HP: For everyone else, it capped out at +1 per level. What, in 1st Ed? No, it was max +2 per die for non-fighters, max +4 per die for fighters. But the bard would get the fighter bonus on his fighter Hit Dice, the everyone-else bonus on his thief and bard dice. The point was that he got so _many_ of them - a bard with 18 CON could get +28 on his fighter dice, and +22 on the rest. True, in the _very_ long term he gets overhauled by the fighter, who’s getting +3 per level after 9th (no bonus any more) while the bard is getting only +1 and maxes out at 23rd level (!). And of course not every fighter would have 18 CON in the first place… (mind you, how a bard gets a 16+ CON in addition to the four mandatory 15s he needs is left as an exercise for the student). ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4706 "2012-09-09T02:15:34Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > What, in 1st Ed? No, it was max +2 per die for non-fighters, max +4 per die for fighters. But the bard would get the fighter bonus on his fighter Hit Dice, the everyone-else bonus on his thief and bard dice. The point was that he got so _many_ of them - a bard with 18 CON could get +28 on his fighter dice, and +22 on the rest. True, in the _very_ long term he gets overhauled by the fighter, who’s getting +3 per level after 9th (no bonus any more) while the bard is getting only +1 and maxes out at 23rd level (!). And of course not every fighter would have 18 CON in the first place… (mind you, how a bard gets a 16+ CON in addition to the four mandatory 15s he needs is left as an exercise for the student). I rolled up an NPC henchman for a player once. She was a paladin who drew from a Deck of Many Things and get the Henchman card. 3 6 sided dice, straight down the stats list: 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 16. After I finished crying, I made him a LG fighter, who was following her around trying to figure out how to be charismatic enough to finally become the paladin he wanted to be. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4707 "2012-09-09T07:31:40Z")
Heh, you’d expect to see stats like that once in 10[sup]13[/sup] attempts to 1 sig. fig. 😃 The 1st Ed DMG positively encouraged “DM avatars” though, because there were all manner of favourable stat adjustments to NPCs. No cite, because I lent my DMG to someone twenty years ago figuring I could get it back any time I liked, and, well… :smack: :smack: :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 10:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4708 "2012-09-09T10:44:46Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > And of course not every fighter would have 18 CON in the first place… (mind you, how a bard gets a 16+ CON in addition to the four mandatory 15s he needs is left as an exercise for the student). There were assorted TSR adventures that gave stat boosts, and a Wish could increase a stat by 1. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4709 "2012-09-09T16:47:20Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There were assorted TSR adventures that gave stat boosts, and a Wish could increase a stat by 1. Indeed, and items that gave permanent stat boosts, items that gave stat boosts while they were in your possession (Ioun Stones), and so on. And really, anything that the DM said gave you a stat boost did in fact do so, which was quite common in the campaigns I played in. That bard of mine got a nasty shock one time when his item-laden ass, along with the rest of the party’s, found themselves in an anti-magic chamber with quite a lot of Fire Giants. As a member of the party put it, “Oh no - not a _fair fight_ with fire giants!”. Even the 1st Ed variety could chew their way through 140 hit points in quite a hurry when there was nothing but AC 7 (Dex-based) in their way and he had nothing to hit back with but a normal longsword with a +1 damage bonus for Str. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4710 "2012-09-09T16:55:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > There were assorted TSR adventures that gave stat boosts, and a Wish could increase a stat by 1. Up to 16, I believe. After that, each wish only bumped by some number of percentage points…if you had a 17 strength and you wanted to wish for more, you could go up to 17/01 or 17/10 or something, but not full points after 16. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4711 "2012-09-09T17:56:53Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Up to 16, I believe. After that, each wish only bumped by some number of percentage points…if you had a 17 strength and you wanted to wish for more, you could go up to 17/01 or 17/10 or something, but not full points after 16. That was 2e wasn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4712 "2012-09-09T18:10:20Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > That was 2e wasn’t it? I’m not sure. I thought it was something in the old DMG, but it’s entirely possible that it was something that came in at 2e. The boundary is a little vague, considering that 2nd was really more like 1.5. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4713 "2012-09-09T19:00:08Z")
No, it was in the AD&D DMG. 0.1 stat point for every wish after the target hit 16 in that stat. I recall being frustrated about it way back when. ---
**Author:** ![Lok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e8c25b/32.png) [@Lok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lok)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4714 "2012-09-09T19:09:20Z")
Yeah, but it was still really up to the DM. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4715 "2012-09-09T19:13:51Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > Yeah, but it was still really up to the DM. True, but I would consider any campaign that allowed full-point wishes above 16 to be stepping right off the edge of the Monty Haul cliff, because that’s not the kind of rule nerf that you START with…it’s at least a second-tier change. Either Monty Haul or didn’t read the DMG very carefully. (I used to read that thing to pieces…the fact that there was pretty much NO organization to it was just part of the charm.) ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4716 "2012-09-09T19:16:20Z")
My 1979 AD&D Dungeon Master’s Guide says, on Page 11: _"Therefore, then any ability score reaches 16, then it should be ruled a wish will have the effect of increasing the ability by only 1/10th of a point._" That’s in the desk next to me if there are any questions like that. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4717 "2012-09-09T19:39:13Z")
I sit corrected. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4718 "2012-09-10T01:55:37Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > I rolled up an NPC henchman for a player once. She was a paladin who drew from a Deck of Many Things and get the Henchman card. 3 6 sided dice, straight down the stats list: 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 16. After I finished crying, I made him a LG fighter, who was following her around trying to figure out how to be charismatic enough to finally become the paladin he wanted to be. I once rolled two triple sixes in a row during a game of Risk, shocking myself and my companion. What are the odds? 1:46656 actually. In contrast 1/6^15= 1:470,184,984,576 or 2.126822491e-12 or .000000000002126822 Um, are you sure nobody slipped you a loaded die? (Rhetorical question). (Stats geeks: Divide 470 billion by 6 to take into account the 6th roll and the number is still very large.) ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4719 "2012-09-10T02:43:11Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I once rolled two triple sixes in a row during a game of Risk, shocking myself and my companion. What are the odds? 1:46656 actually. I’ve had the exact opposite happen while playing Blood Bowl. Roll to pick up the ball? 1. Spend a Team Reroll? 1. Turn ends. Next turn, roll to pick up the ball? 1. Spend a Team Reroll? 1. Turn ends. Third turn, roll to pick up the ball? 1. Spend a Team Reroll? 1. Rage quit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4720 "2012-09-10T03:03:23Z")
> [@Lok](#): > > I rolled up an NPC henchman for a player once. She was a paladin who drew from a Deck of Many Things and get the Henchman card. 3 6 sided dice, straight down the stats list: 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 16. After I finished crying, I made him a LG fighter, who was following her around trying to figure out how to be charismatic enough to finally become the paladin he wanted to be. Reminds me of the Paladin I rolled up whose scores were all 18s and two or three 17s; I named him Prindam the Perfect. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/4721 "2012-09-10T03:21:00Z")
Yeah, you got stats like that in 2e and you pretty much HAD to play a Paladin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=235) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=237)