# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 257
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5122 "2013-03-03T05:04:45Z")
While it works okay in the story, I don’t really like this “spell with a back door” idea. If you’re just handing someone a preconstructed magic item that they can turn on, it makes sense that they might not know about the loophole you built into it, but this is like giving them an instruction manual teaching an experienced artificer how to build one from scratch, and expecting them not to notice the booby trap they are building into it. The only exception - Wish - is a spell where the caster _knows_ they prepared a spell that meddles with unfathomable power. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5123 "2013-03-03T05:19:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > While it works okay in the story, I don’t really like this “spell with a back door” idea. If you’re just handing someone a preconstructed magic item that they can turn on, it makes sense that they might not know about the loophole you built into it, but this is like giving them an instruction manual teaching an experienced artificer how to build one from scratch, and expecting them not to notice the booby trap they are building into it. I think it’s more like writing software. It’s pretty hard to parse code you didn’t write yourself to figure out exactly what it does. If Malack just provided a chunk of “code” that contained the back door, and told him that it solved a particular part of the problem with the spell, I can see Durkon taking it at face value, and not digging into it to find the trap in it. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5124 "2013-03-03T05:44:18Z")
So… there’s no specific part of D&D lore that’s being referenced here, like “Power Word: Dispel Magic Beyond First Level Spell” or something or other?? I guess it’s a reference to this comic, where Malack gives Durkon a spell book: [739 A New Friend - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) Or no? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5125 "2013-03-03T05:58:40Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > So… there’s no specific part of D&D lore that’s being referenced here, like “Power Word: Dispel Magic Beyond First Level Spell” or something or other?? > > I guess it’s a reference to this comic, where Malack gives Durkon a spell book: [739 A New Friend - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0739.html) > > Or no? That’s correct. It’s basically a houseruled spell, “Mass Death Ward With A Deactivation Password”. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5126 "2013-03-03T07:26:50Z")
Not to sound like an Epileptic Tree or anything (because for all we know, something could happen in the very next comic to prevent Durkon getting vamped), but you remember the Oracle’s prediction that Durkon would only return _posthumously_ to his beloved homelands? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5127 "2013-03-03T10:21:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Not to sound like an Epileptic Tree or anything It WOULD be funny if an animated tree staked Malack at the last second, leaving Durkon with the knowledge that a TREE saved him from being undead. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5128 "2013-03-03T11:06:26Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > Not to sound like an Epileptic Tree or anything (because for all we know, something could happen in the very next comic to prevent Durkon getting vamped), but you remember the Oracle’s prediction that Durkon would only return _posthumously_ to his beloved homelands? And, from _On the Origin of PCs_, the prophecy that, when Durkon returned home, it would spell big trouble for his people. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5129 "2013-03-03T15:05:18Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > While it works okay in the story, I don’t really like this “spell with a back door” idea. If you’re just handing someone a preconstructed magic item that they can turn on, it makes sense that they might not know about the loophole you built into it, but this is like giving them an instruction manual teaching an experienced artificer how to build one from scratch, and expecting them not to notice the booby trap they are building into it. > [@Miller](#): > > I think it’s more like writing software. It’s pretty hard to parse code you didn’t write yourself to figure out exactly what it does. If Malack just provided a chunk of “code” that contained the back door, and told him that it solved a particular part of the problem with the spell, I can see Durkon taking it at face value, and not digging into it to find the trap in it. This is more an issue with the D&D spell system itself and a need for balance between arcane and divine magic but it tweaks me to think that you could put a “backdoor fail safe” into a plea to your respective deity. “Dear Thor, please protect me from death… unless someone says Xxzerkqei, then never mind.” Of course, that opens the question of why you’d need to prepare in advance to walk on water versus asking your deity on the fly which is unbalanced against mage types needing to commit the arcane language of _Magic Missile_ to memory. That’s no complaint to the author though since the system is what it is and the whole point of the comic is playing within the system with its silliness. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5130 "2013-03-03T20:27:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > This is more an issue with the D&D spell system itself and a need for balance between arcane and divine magic but it tweaks me to think that you could put a “backdoor fail safe” into a plea to your respective deity. “Dear Thor, please protect me from death… unless someone says Xxzerkqei, then never mind.” Of course, that opens the question of why you’d need to prepare in advance to walk on water versus asking your deity on the fly which is unbalanced against mage types needing to commit the arcane language of _Magic Missile_ to memory. > > That’s no complaint to the author though since the system is what it is and the whole point of the comic is playing within the system with its silliness. Burlew alludes to this problem in his improvisational “Design an RPG” series of articles. > [@Rich Burlew](#): > > As I think about it, I realize that wizards making dark deals with a supernatural force is a deeply-ingrained part of real-world mythology, but exists nowhere in the D&D game. That might be in order to deflect claims of devil-worshipping by certain fundamentalist groups, but there’s no reason to limit arcane deal-making to evil demons. Perhaps in this world, all magic must come from an external source, and it always comes with strings attached. I like that, it certainly is a departure from the “magic as technology” feel that is prevalent in certain worlds. > …I think I will stick with my original idea to have all magic be of the same type. No division between arcane and divine in this world, magic will simply be magic. That’s easier with these rules because I get to craft a mage class from the ground up, including both cleric and wizard spells on the same list. And then, as mentioned, the decision whether you want to be a priest or not is one of roleplaying, not mechanics. The Sun and Moon will provide magic to anyone who masters the technique. While many priests will choose to learn magic as a way of honoring their gods, plenty won’t. Likewise, not everyone who masters magic is going to be particularly interested in praise and worship. I think I will keep the idea that the church frowns on non-worshipping magicians, though; the idea of secretive wizards hiding their powers appeals to me. But that will be a political aspect of the world, primarily. [http://www.giantitp.com/articles/YPgbz2j3PckGjjviJU5.html](http://www.giantitp.com/articles/YPgbz2j3PckGjjviJU5.html) [http://www.giantitp.com/articles/d3yU9VbXd8DxiiVgD8k.html](http://www.giantitp.com/articles/d3yU9VbXd8DxiiVgD8k.html) Appropos nothing, Burlew’s Sun and Moon schtick reminded me of Nick’s [Avatar: The Last Airbender](http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar:_The_Last_Airbender). They both worked off of a handful of elemental forces which translate readily into schools of magic. I sort of like the idea of having first level spells a matter of common knowledge and accessible to any literate person. After that though, you have to cut deals with arcane powers, so it’s a matter of specialization, search and research. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5131 "2013-03-03T21:08:15Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Grumman** : > > While it works okay in the story, I don’t really like this “spell with a back door” idea. If you’re just handing someone a preconstructed magic item that they can turn on, it makes sense that they might not know about the loophole you built into it, but this is like giving them an instruction manual teaching an experienced artificer how to build one from scratch, and expecting them not to notice the booby trap they are building into it. As compared to, say, a wise and skilled old elf making a set of magic rings using some tips from a secretly evil being (but without any direct help at all), and ending up with a back door in them as a result? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5132 "2013-03-04T02:25:51Z")
[It’s up!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0877.html) And it looks like we’ll be seeing vampire-Durkon after all…and the Durkon goes back home as a dead vampire prophecy twist too perhaps ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5133 "2013-03-04T03:13:59Z")
Whoa. And a point on the art: Did anyone else notice that Durkon gets paler from panel to panel? Nice touch, Rich. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5134 "2013-03-04T03:20:54Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > And it looks like we’ll be seeing vampire-Durkon after all…and the Durkon goes back home as a dead vampire prophecy twist too perhaps It will be interesting from this point on, usually once you lose the cleric things fall to pieces really fast, but plot always wins. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5135 "2013-03-04T03:21:07Z")
Ok that made me a lot sadder than i expected. ---
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5136 "2013-03-04T03:23:04Z")
Oh god. [spoiler]I literally put my hands over my mouth in shock at that last panel. I was really hoping V would show up, have a moment of doubt about killing again after his breakdown and then manage to kill the bloodsucking murderous scumbag. (Uh, Malack, I mean. Not Belkar.) I can’t believe how unbeleivably expressive those stick figures can be, and Durkon’s face throughout… not to mention his selflessness and bravery, his acceptance… oh gosh I’m teary. Waaah. ☹ Fucking Malack needs to DIE. NOW. Or at least soon and as painfully as possible. Is a vampire who used to be Good when alive automatically Evil? Rich usually doesn’t do the “all races are 1 thing” (and indeed has specifically shown otherwise many times), so I’m hoping that as bizarre as it would be, a vamped Durkon and Belkar could still be in the Order. Or even just Durkon. I like Belkar but his role is much more easily replaced than Durkon. Also he hasn’t been completely vamped and I would be very interested to know how he reacts if somehow Malack doesn’t get to turn him (V! V!) and he sees that Durkon basically sacrificed his life for him.[/spoiler] This has been the best sequence of strips since Darth V. That one took longer and involved my favorite character in some fantastic characterization and dark twists so it takes my award for best arc, but these daily nonstop panels of awesome, with the shifting advantages during the battle, the excellent artwork and clever, funny and moving writing, have been almost as incredible so far. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5137 "2013-03-04T03:56:53Z")
> [@wolfman](#): > > It will be interesting from this point on, usually once you lose the cleric things fall to pieces really fast, but plot always wins. Wild speculation: Malack simply orders Vampire!Durkon to not attack him personally or seek a cure for his condition, and lets Durkon go back to the Order as a vampire with free will otherwise - that’s his “compromise”. It’ll be Malack’s idea of how to teach Durkon vampire tolerance/acceptance. And hey, maybe they can be friends again once Durkon gets used to being an unholy bloodsucking undead… ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5138 "2013-03-04T03:58:17Z")
WHOA. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5139 "2013-03-04T03:58:19Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Ok that made me a lot sadder than i expected. Same here. Last night, as we waited anxiously to see if Durkon was really going to die, my 14-year-old daughter and I were discussing the times when Order of the Stick has had us really nervous for a character. We started reading it near the end of the Azure City battle (well, I did … she started reading it [shortly before I made this thread on the GitP forums to show off her super-cute Order of the Stick character drawings](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122373)), so it was basically [ul] [li]When the Monster in the Darkness was having tea with Roy and O-chul, we were really worried about O-chul.[/li][li]When Belkar and Haley and Celia were fighting the Thieves Guild, we were really worried about Haley and the unnamed cleric of Loki.[/li][li]When Vaarsuvius was dealing with the black dragon mom, we were really worried about Vaarsuvius, Inkyrius, and the two children.[/li][li]When Vaarsuvius fought Xykon, we were really worried about Vaarsuvius and O-chul.[/li][li]When Redcloak crushed the resistance, we were really worried for Thanh and Niu.[/li][li]And now, of course, we were worried about Belkar, and then Durkon.[/li][/ul] I can’t believe how sad that was, especially given Durkon’s speech, and what kind of future it bodes for the rest of the Order (how can they go on without anybody to heal them? Elan can do “mass cure light wounds,” but that isn’t going to help a whole lot) … ☹ After we read it, my daughter got up and said “I’m going to go sit in my room and be sad forever.” And now we’re all tied up in knots inside wondering what’s going to happen with Belkar and Mr. Scruffy… ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5140 "2013-03-04T04:02:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Wild speculation: Malack simply orders Vampire!Durkon to not attack him personally or seek a cure for his condition, and lets Durkon go back to the Order as a vampire with free will otherwise - that’s his “compromise”. It’ll be Malack’s idea of how to teach Durkon vampire tolerance/acceptance. And hey, maybe they can be friends again once Durkon gets used to being an unholy bloodsucking undead… Two questions regarding that possibility: [ol] [li]Malack can keep Durkon enslaved to him or give him free will, right?[/li][li]Would Durkon still be able to be a cleric of a (presumably) Lawful Good god like Thor if he’s a vampire? Even if he’s enslaved to Malack?[/li]OK, make that 3 … [li]A look at [d20srd.org](http://d20srd.org) makes it sound like, because Malack killed him by draining his blood, Durkon will become a “vampire spawn”, not a vampire. Is that correct? Does it make a big difference?[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5141 "2013-03-04T04:12:28Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Two questions regarding that possibility: > > [ol] > [li]Malack can keep Durkon enslaved to him or give him free will, right?[/li][li]Would Durkon still be able to be a cleric of a (presumably) Lawful Good god like Thor if he’s a vampire? Even if he’s enslaved to Malack?[/li]OK, make that 3 … > [li]A look at [d20srd.org](http://d20srd.org) makes it sound like, because Malack killed him by draining his blood, Durkon will become a “vampire spawn”, not a vampire. Is that correct? Does it make a big difference?[/li][/ol] Yes to the first; I’m not really sure about the other two. Back when I actually played D&D it was still called Advanced Dungeons and Dragons, so my game mechanics knowledge is a tad spotty for later editions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=256) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=258)