# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 261
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5202 "2013-03-05T04:59:23Z")
The cost of a scroll already includes any material components needed for the spell. The diamonds were expended when the scroll was created, not when it’s used. And the scroll was mentioned in [634](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). Admittedly, it was mentioned by the fiends, who may well be lying, but I’m pretty sure they weren’t, since that would diminish V’s free will in making the choice e did. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5203 "2013-03-05T05:32:00Z")
Hmmm. 877 bodes ill for the dwarves. The prophecy from “On the Origin of PCs” was that Durkon would bring death and destruction to all the dwarves when he returns. And now that he’s dead, the oracle’s prophecy is that he’ll be returning home. And I think Kraagor was a dwarf, [so guess where Serini probably built his tomb…](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5204 "2013-03-05T05:41:14Z")
Here’s a thought: if the previous post is correct, that event doesn’t fit into the overall Gate storyline. That means that if it comes true, it’ll necessarily be a “subquest,” probably after what happens to this Gate happens (since I don’t see that kind of event being resolved after the main storyline ends as an “off screen,” Scouring of the Shire thing). That means we’re both still a ways away from the conclusion of the main story, and that there’s plenty of time for Durkon to get back on the OOTS somehow (since I kind of doubt he won’t be there at the final battle in SOME form) — sort of like V’s subplot? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5205 "2013-03-05T05:45:29Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Here’s a thought: if the previous post is correct, that event doesn’t fit into the overall Gate storyline. That means that if it comes true, it’ll necessarily be a “subquest,” probably after what happens to this Gate happens (since I don’t see that kind of event being resolved after the main storyline ends as an “off screen,” Scouring of the Shire thing). How does it not fit in? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5206 "2013-03-05T05:46:48Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The cost of a scroll already includes any material components needed for the spell. The diamonds were expended when the scroll was created, not when it’s used. > > And the scroll was mentioned in [634](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html). Admittedly, it was mentioned by the fiends, who may well be lying, but I’m pretty sure they weren’t, since that would diminish V’s free will in making the choice e did. I’m pretty sure the scroll/casting time they mention is regarding the Sending spell’s casting time of 10 minutes, not Resurrection’s. (Since it shows Durkon reading the scroll while Vaarsuvius has already been resurrected.) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5207 "2013-03-05T05:48:36Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > How does it not fit in? In the sense that what does or does not happen to Durkon’s homeland has no direct impact (as far as we know, granted) on Kragor’s Gate or who controls it. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5208 "2013-03-05T05:54:18Z")
Oh, I always assumed that Kraagor’s gate/tomb was going to turn out to be right near or actually in Durkon’s homeland, since they’re both way up north. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5209 "2013-03-05T05:56:39Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > In the sense that what does or does not happen to Durkon’s homeland has no direct impact (as far as we know, granted) on Kragor’s Gate or who controls it. Unless of course Kraagor’s Gate is IN Durkon’s homeland, which would make sense. I’m learning this week that either we’re not very good at predicting the story or Rich is very good at keeping one step ahead of us, but this seems a reasonable assumption. In OtOoPCs when Durkon leaves his home it is snowy, and Kraagor’s gate is in the frozen north. I don’t necessarily think it’s in the same caves as his home - the tomb is supposed to be filled with nasty monsters - but it certainly could be nearby. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5210 "2013-03-05T05:59:21Z")
Hmmmm. I wonder if Malack’s slain-by-Nale “family” really was his family; namely his brothers whose blood he drank. > [@chorpler](#): > > Oh, I always assumed that Kraagor’s gate/tomb was going to turn out to be right near or actually in Durkon’s homeland, since they’re both way up north. And likely in dwarven territory, [since he was a dwarf](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html). EDIT: Ninjaed! ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5211 "2013-03-05T06:05:47Z")
Wait, even if Durkon is resurrected at some point, from _a certain point of view_, he’d still be posthumous, wouldn’t he? And the death and destruction he brings doesn’t have to be of his own making, does it (so, an Azure City-style scenario at Kraagor’s gate?) ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5212 "2013-03-05T07:00:09Z")
Hm, point. I’d forgotten that Kraagor was the dwarf in the party. Then I guess it depends whether the climax takes place at his gate, or in Snarl-world (or whatever Blackwing saw that one time he looked into the rift). If the latter, again I say I don’t think it’d feel right for Durkon not to be present in some form. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5213 "2013-03-05T07:06:50Z")
nm ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5214 "2013-03-05T07:18:00Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > And the death and destruction he brings doesn’t have to be of his own making, does it (so, an Azure City-style scenario at Kraagor’s gate?) That’s precisely what I always assumed–that it would be Xykon/Redcloak causing the actual destruction. But now… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5215 "2013-03-05T07:25:22Z")
I’m wondering how Elan’s “secret plan Elan worked out with Durkon against Tarquin” works sans Durkon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5216 "2013-03-05T08:00:47Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I’m wondering how Elan’s “secret plan Elan worked out with Durkon against Tarquin” works sans Durkon. I’d assumed that already happened (the Meld With stone ambush) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5217 "2013-03-05T12:44:04Z")
Nah, winning one battle isn’t what Elan has in mind for “making everything all right”. It has to go a lot deeper than that. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5218 "2013-03-05T14:28:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It wouldn’t take a cleric ex machina, just a scroll, which Haley or probably Elan could use. That’s a perfectly plausible thing for a party of that level to be carrying (along with a scroll or two of Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, Dispel Magic, Heal, etc.), just for the contingency that something happens to incapacitate the cleric. Agreed, except for two things. You’d think if they were that prepared that they’d have some scrolls of Pro v. Evil or Magic Circle v. Evil; either of which would have come in handy for Durkon in this last fight. Second, I saw this question on the forums, but isn’t there an awfully high DC check to cast a spell like Resurrection from a scroll? I can’t see either Haley or Elan having the chops to do it, but, oddly, it wouldn’t surprise me if _Tarquin_ could do it. Use Magical Device seems like exactly the kind of feat he’d have. Your later comment about the diamond dust is really funny to me, after the drama in the last book of Haley having to steal the diamond from her character sheet for Roy’s Rez. Now a days, as you note, they’ve enough $$$ to just blow a Rez’s (or a Symbol’s—still disappointed that Durkon didn’t fire off one of those) worth of diamond dust on trying to gather intel. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5219 "2013-03-05T14:46:55Z")
Prediction: We will now shift to the rest of the group finding V. V will confess to depression and powerlessness. At this point Durkon will attack, as will Tarquin. Cliffhanger until next book. Have we identified the “at least nine” sides of this whole magilla yet? There’s OotS, Linear Guild, Team Evil, Redcloak, the fiends, Tarquin…who else? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5220 "2013-03-05T14:54:03Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Hmmmm. I wonder if Malack’s slain-by-Nale “family” really was his family; namely his brothers whose blood he drank… Thinking of your comment, it makes me a bit annoyed that Burlew had to go and drop the Nazi card on Malack like that, dispelling any doubt whatsoever of his alignment. (And then [get irritated](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14808112&postcount=125) that people would think of Nazis instead of factory farming. Oh well, nobody’s perfect. The strip is still fantastic., and ‘vampires are to humans as humans are to cattle’ is an interesting analogy. Guess we shouldn’t eat intelligent, self-aware food…) Would it be possible for Malack’s family arrangement to include his drinking his brothers’ blood–with their permission—then casting Restoration and e.g., Cure Moderate Wounds to remedy the damage? Such conduct wouldn’t necessarily be evil. I’d even argue that draining condemned criminals wouldn’t be evil, provided the criminals were actually guilty of crimes that would merit capital punishment in another, more just, jurisdiction. (Obviously not applicable if you feel capital punishment is itself Evil.) So you could have a non-Evil vampire, without making him an Edward-clone. Moot in this case of course. Edit: **Silenus** , could we add Azure City+ the Elves, Gobbotopia, and the Dwarves to the list? ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5221 "2013-03-05T15:04:04Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Edit: **Silenus** , could we add Azure City+ the Elves, Gobbotopia, and the Dwarves to the list? At the very least. I’d also include the MitD as a wild card, at least if O-Chul is in on the final battle. And maybe the gods themselves, come to think of it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=260) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=262)