# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 266
**Author:** ![JoseB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/joseb/32/1530_2.png) [@JoseB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoseB)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5302 "2013-03-13T14:46:16Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Belkar’s cat: Are his eyes each a different color? (Like Tsukiko?) No, they are both yellow. But they are different sizes when drawn, and the smaller eye tends to look darker than the bigger one. But the inside is, in both cases, yellow. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5303 "2013-03-13T15:20:52Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > And the whole thing shows how even just by faking being a part of the team, Belkar can’t help but have real character growth. Which proves once more what a manipulative genius Lord Shojo was - he actually conned someone into changing alignment. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5304 "2013-03-13T16:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Interesting to note that Belkar admitted to Roy that he was faking being part of the team. And he didn’t say “Wait, \* what \* prophecy?” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5305 "2013-03-13T16:34:09Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > And he didn’t say “Wait, \* what \* prophecy?” He’s a little distracted and woozy at the moment, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t miss that. Give it a strip or two. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5306 "2013-03-13T21:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Which proves once more what a manipulative genius Lord Shojo was - he actually conned someone into changing alignment. Well, shifting, at least. I’m pretty sure Belkar is still evil, but he’s definitely less evil than he once was. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5307 "2013-03-13T22:09:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Interesting to note that Belkar _admitted_ to Roy that he was faking being part of the team. What’s really great about that line is that it also shows that, despite what he thinks, Belkar isn’t faking at all. He’s altered his behavior to make his teammates more comfortable with him, and more willing to have him around. That’s not “faking” being part of a team. That’s just being part of a team. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5308 "2013-03-13T22:12:52Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What’s really great about that line is that it also shows that, despite what he thinks, Belkar isn’t faking at all. He’s altered his behavior to make his teammates more comfortable with him, and more willing to have him around. That’s not “faking” being part of a team. That’s just being part of a team. It’s amazing how long that realization takes some people IRL, too. 😛 I predict Belkar does a double-take on the prophesy comment within 2 strips. Bets on how Roy breaks it to him? I am also willing to bet that Belkar goes out in a blaze of glory trying to save a member of the team. Who would have thunk it? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5309 "2013-03-13T22:58:20Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > He’s a little distracted and woozy at the moment, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t miss that. Give it a strip or two. I think he already may have done so - look at Belkar’s expression in the last panel. It looks like a "Say _what?!"_ expression to me. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5310 "2013-03-13T23:10:17Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > …I am also willing to bet that Belkar goes out in a blaze of glory trying to save a member of the team. Who would have thunk it? Still liking the idea of blowing up this Gate via a retributive strike, using Malack’s suspiciously-powerful staff. Belkar would be as good for this as anybody. This assumes, of course, that Malack snuffs it at this Gate, freeing Durkferatu to “live” freely. A side effect of that would be, with Malack gone, I don’t think there’s anyone available to the Order who can cast Resurrection. D may feel, despite his great loathing of undeath, that the Order needs a healer to stop Team Evil more than D needs to be free of this curse. Of course, Malack (or D, or both!) may be the “Death and Destruction” prophesied for the Dwarven Homelands. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2013, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5311 "2013-03-13T23:18:20Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Still liking the idea of blowing up this Gate via a retributive strike, using Malack’s suspiciously-powerful staff. Belkar would be as good for this as anybody. This assumes, of course, that Malack snuffs it at this Gate, freeing Durkferatu to “live” freely. A side effect of that would be, with Malack gone, I don’t think there’s anyone available to the Order who can cast Resurrection. D may feel, despite his great loathing of undeath, that the Order needs a healer to stop Team Evil more than D needs to be free of this curse. > > Of course, Malack (or D, or both!) may be the “Death and Destruction” prophesied for the Dwarven Homelands. I’m guessing vampire Durkon isn’t going to want to be “cured,” but (once freed from Malack’s control) will want to rejoin the party to finish the quest. I look forward to Roy trying to justify keeping Durkon out of the party, while letting Belkar stay in. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5312 "2013-03-14T02:58:28Z")
Why would Durkon _not_ want to be cured? Unlike Malack, he hasn’t had 200 years of being a vampire. Also: This comic made me sad. And I don’t think Roy’s fully gone through the Stages of Grief yet. He was on denial and anger, and now he’s in depression. Incidentally, Kubler-Ross herself would be the first to tell you that not everyone goes through all five stages at all, and not necessarily in the “correct” order. Acceptance, I don’t think has happened yet. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5313 "2013-03-14T03:26:42Z")
_Can_ a vampire even want to be cured? I was under the impression that vampirism superceded the existing personality to the extent that that was impossible. And while we’re at it with the Stages of Grief, Durkon went through several of them, too: At least Bargaining and Acceptance, and probably Anger too. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5314 "2013-03-14T05:17:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _Can_ a vampire even want to be cured? I was under the impression that vampirism superceded the existing personality to the extent that that was impossible. Good question. And similarly this one: > [@Miller](#): > > I’m guessing vampire Durkon […](once freed from Malack’s control) will want to rejoin the party to finish the quest. Isn’t Durkon by definition now LE? And therefore not very interested in any quest by Good Team OOTS against Team Evil? I don’t think Durkonpire would instinctively want to help Xykon, but it seems like he wouldn’t be averse to whatever Tarquin and Malack, LE both, want to do. Unless perhaps he comes up with his own unique take on what Law is for his new Evil self, I suppose. Or is Durkons Lawful nature up for for grabs as well? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5315 "2013-03-14T06:40:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > _Can_ a vampire even want to be cured? I was under the impression that vampirism superceded the existing personality to the extent that that was impossible. I get the impression from what Malack [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) that being cured amounts to the destruction of the vampire personality and the restoration of the mortal one with no memory of the time as a vampire. So from the vampire’s point of view there is no cure, just being destroyed and replaced. So if my take on it is right, it’s not so much whether or not Vampire Durkon wants a cure, it’s whether or not he feels suicidal. _More_ than suicidal in the OOTS context, since Vampire Durkon wouldn’t even get an afterlife, just erasure. > [@squeegee](#): > > Isn’t Durkon by definition now LE? And therefore not very interested in any quest by Good Team OOTS against Team Evil? I don’t think Durkonpire would instinctively want to help Xykon, but it seems like he wouldn’t be averse to whatever Tarquin and Malack, LE both, want to do. Unless perhaps he comes up with his own unique take on what Law is for his new Evil self, I suppose. Or is Durkons Lawful nature up for for grabs as well? Well, being Lawful he may still feel personal loyalty to Roy and/or the Order. And as a practical matter, he’ll still want to save the world from being destroyed, assuming he doesn’t go all self-loathing. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5316 "2013-03-14T10:56:02Z")
My guess is that Malack doesn’t survive this gate, thus freeing Durkon, who has no particular loyalty to Tarquin. Being evil isn’t a bar to opposing Xykon. It never stopped Belkar from being a party member. Plus, his sudden alignment change to evil works as a great dramatic contrast with Belkars gradual change towards good. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5317 "2013-03-14T13:17:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I get the impression from what Malack [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) that being cured amounts to the destruction of the vampire personality and the restoration of the mortal one with no memory of the time as a vampire. I didn’t get that at all. Malack was (from my view) just saying that “curing” him was changing him from a powerful vampire-cleric and ally of a national leader back into a chump lizardman who didn’t even have a tribe any longer, much less the resources of a nation at his feet. He’d still be a cleric but much of his power and parity with Tarquin comes from his vampirism. There isn’t any going back from the dizzying heights of power and Malack would have nowhere to go back to even if he was cured. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5318 "2013-03-14T15:27:01Z")
How powerful is vampire Durkon? He was a Lawful Good cleric of Thor. I’m guessing that Thor will want nothing to do with him now (not that Thor has shown himself to be particularly observant). All his spells were granted by Thor. I’m guessing that Harm is not in his spellbook. And heal won’t do to much good in a brawl. Will he have to find a new evil deity? If so, does he come in at the same level? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5319 "2013-03-14T17:43:12Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I get the impression from what Malack [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html) that being cured amounts to the destruction of the vampire personality and the restoration of the mortal one with no memory of the time as a vampire. So from the vampire’s point of view there is no cure, just being destroyed and replaced. So if my take on it is right, it’s not so much whether or not Vampire Durkon wants a cure, it’s whether or not he feels suicidal. _More_ than suicidal in the OOTS context, since Vampire Durkon wouldn’t even get an afterlife, just erasure… > [@Jophiel](#): > > I didn’t get that at all. Malack was (from my view) just saying that “curing” him was changing him from a powerful vampire-cleric and ally of a national leader back into a chump lizardman who didn’t even have a tribe any longer, much less the resources of a nation at his feet. He’d still be a cleric but much of his power and parity with Tarquin comes from his vampirism… > [@Finagle](#): > > How powerful is vampire Durkon? He was a Lawful Good cleric of Thor. I’m guessing that Thor will want nothing to do with him now (not that Thor has shown himself to be particularly observant). All his spells were granted by Thor. I’m guessing that Harm is not in his spellbook. And heal won’t do to much good in a brawl. Will he have to find a new evil deity? If so, does he come in at the same level? Unless Malack is a half-dragon/half lizardman, as the Draketooth family tree suggests is possible, he’ll be dead of old age if he wasn’t a vampire. So, I thought his mentioning how long it had been since his vampirism, wasn’t to say that going from to undeath and life obliterates your memories as a vampire, it was that he’d be destroyed if he wasn’t a vampire. As for the Evil of vampirism, I thought that Burlew was big on the “deeds make alignment, not your species,” point of view? Other than chomping on Belkar, D hasn’t had many evil deeds yet. (Of course, it’s still early…) While I can’t see Thor continuing to grant spells to D, I like the idea of Hel beginning to do so. Whether D would volunteer to do that, or whether being Malack’s thrall removes any choice in the matter, I don’t know. But if D isn’t getting spells from anyone, his build as a vampire frankly sucks. _Belkar_ as a vampire, OTOH… It’ll be interesting how Burlew chooses to handle it. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5320 "2013-03-14T18:26:45Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Unless Malack is a half-dragon/half lizardman, as the Draketooth family tree suggests is possible, he’ll be dead of old age if he wasn’t a vampire. So, I thought his mentioning how long it had been since his vampirism, wasn’t to say that going from to undeath and life obliterates your memories as a vampire, it was that he’d be destroyed if he wasn’t a vampire. Well, had he not been vampirized, he’d be dead by now. Had Durkon “killed” him and Resurrected him from the remains, he’d be alive at the same physical/biological age he was when he died. He just wouldn’t have anything to show for it (no tribe, no family, etc) vs his “life” as a vampire. No idea how they do it now but I vaguely remember the old rules (1st ed Deities & Demigods?) saying that a cleric changing deities was looking at a minimum two level drop in power and being barred from the most powerful spell levels until they re-established themselves in their new patron’s eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2013, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5321 "2013-03-14T19:26:42Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I didn’t get that at all. Malack was (from my view) just saying that “curing” him was changing him from a powerful vampire-cleric and ally of a national leader back into a chump lizardman who didn’t even have a tribe any longer, much less the resources of a nation at his feet. He’d still be a cleric but much of his power and parity with Tarquin comes from his vampirism. There isn’t any going back from the dizzying heights of power and Malack would have nowhere to go back to even if he was cured. I don’t think so. “Annihilating the person I am today” seems to me to imply something a lot more drastic than just a loss of personal power. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=265) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=267)