# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 284
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5662 "2013-05-10T18:35:41Z")
What troubles me is that, now that Roy has defeated Xykon in his imagination with that nifty spell-dispelling feat he learned in the afterlife, he probably won’t be able to do that in _real life._ Rich isn’t the type to repeat himself. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5663 "2013-05-10T18:59:43Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > The [spell description](http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/spells/forcecage.html) says nothing about that, actually. I just looked it up when I read your post. It’s not unreasonable to assume the effect, though. Using the windowless cell variation, there’s no way to attack the prisoner of a forcecage from outside (the barred cage variation you CAN attack, as long as the weapon will fit between the force bars, although the prisoner receives cover from the cage). You can attack the cage itself, with both spells and weapons. > > Looking around some more, it seems to be a generally accepted fact that the walls of a forcecage prevent ANY interaction between inside and outside, including spells, weapons and possibly even sound (except for the barred cage version). > [@Kobal2](#): > > Well, it’s supposed to be a cube made out of Walls of Force, and Wall of Force prevents casting through it, so that sounds like a pretty reasonable interpretation of the spell, if not 100% RAW. > That being said, if we go further in “it’s just a specialty WoF” interpretation, then Xykon could free Redcloak with a simple Disintegrate (quickened or otherwise). > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Line of effect: if you have no line of effect to the target or area of your spell, you cannot cast it. Some few conjuration and divination spells (e.g., teleport, scry) are exceptions to this rule, but otherwise it’s a pretty powerful thing. > > There are things Redcloak could in theory do, especially something like summoning a demon with teleport self to join in the fight, but mostly he’d be hosed by this tactic. That’s only half of what I mean. Can’t Redcloak just Disrupt, Dispel, or otherwise magically negate the Forcecage? Xykon tries to do that in the sixth panel of the second half of the comic, I think. Redcloak is not entirely cut off from the outside world-- he’s still able to talk to Xykon through the battle. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5664 "2013-05-10T19:04:52Z")
As far as I know there’s no reason why he couldn’t other than Roy doesn’t think of it as a potential action for him. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5665 "2013-05-10T19:18:00Z")
A question while we’re waiting for the next strip. Should Roy just surrender to Xykon? Think about it. He knows very well that there’s a good chance that Xykon is going to kill him and the rest of the Order. Normally, Roy would view that as a reasonable risk that has to be taken in order to have a chance at killing Xykon. But killing Xykon is no longer their main goal. Their main goal has become preventing the Snarl from being released and destroying the universe again. They’re trying to kill Xykon as a means to that end. But Xykon isn’t aware of the consequences of what he’s planning. He doesn’t want to destroy the universe and he’s said this. If he knew what releasing the Snarl would do, he wouldn’t be trying to do it. By trying to kill Xykon, Roy is taking the chance that Xykon will kill him first and then, unaware of the danger, will go on to release the Snarl. So arguably the best thing Roy could do is surrender himself to Xykon and tell Xykon what’s really going on. Xykon would live (and kill Roy) but the greater good of saving the universe would be secured. There are details to be worked out. Redcloak is aware of what’s going on and would try to prevent Roy from revealing this information to Xykon. But as a matter of general principle, shouldn’t Roy be trying to communicate with Xykon at least as hard as he’s trying to kill him? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5666 "2013-05-10T19:23:49Z")
> [@appleciders](#): > > That’s only half of what I mean. Can’t Redcloak just Disrupt, Dispel, or otherwise magically negate the Forcecage? Xykon tries to do that in the sixth panel of the second half of the comic, I think. Redcloak is not entirely cut off from the outside world-- he’s still able to talk to Xykon through the battle. A Forcecage can’t be Dispelled (Superb Dispelling is epic magic and doesn’t care about that), so unless Redcloak specifically has access to Disintegrate and has it on hand (or a couple of odd magic items, one of which would be conspicuous), he’s stuck for many hours (well over a day at V’s level). ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5667 "2013-05-10T19:58:02Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > A Forcecage can’t be Dispelled (Superb Dispelling is epic magic and doesn’t care about that), so unless Redcloak specifically has access to Disintegrate and has it on hand (or a couple of odd magic items, one of which would be conspicuous), he’s stuck for many hours (well over a day at V’s level). We know that Redcloak has access to Disintergrate: > **[480 Change of Address Needed - Giant in the Playground Games](https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0480.html)** so it’s just a question of whether he’s prepared it that day. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5668 "2013-05-10T21:34:28Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > But Xykon isn’t aware of the consequences of what he’s planning. He doesn’t want to destroy the universe and he’s said this. If he knew what releasing the Snarl would do, he wouldn’t be trying to do it. Would Xykon listen to the truth, though ? Especially if it came from… big sword guy, shouts a lot for some reason ?.. Hey, didn’t I kill him already ? As far as he’d be concerned, Team Good would have a big incentive to tell people the Snarl can’t be controlled/the gates don’t control the Snarl/booga booga booga. The core reason he became a Bad Guy (and then, later, a liche) is because he wouldn’t do what normal people would tell him to and believing he knew better than everyone else. Why stop now ? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5669 "2013-05-10T22:13:32Z")
Do the good guys even know Xykon’s plans for the gate, or that Redcloak has lied to him? I can’t see how they would. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5670 "2013-05-10T22:23:38Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Would Xykon listen to the truth, though ? > Especially if it came from… big sword guy, shouts a lot for some reason ?.. Hey, didn’t I kill him already ? > > As far as he’d be concerned, Team Good would have a big incentive to tell people the Snarl can’t be controlled/the gates don’t control the Snarl/booga booga booga. The core reason he became a Bad Guy (and then, later, a liche) is because he wouldn’t do what normal people would tell him to and believing he knew better than everyone else. Why stop now ? Xykon may not care about minor details (and his idea of what’s a minor detail is pretty loose) but this is something too big for even him to ignore. And he’s not as stupid as his actions sometimes suggest. He would be capable of finding out whether Roy’s information was true if he decided it was important. Redcloak certainly understand this is information that has to be kept from Xykon. He took the risk of killing Tsukiko to keep it a secret. Xykon seems to know that Redcloak is keeping something secret from him but he doesn’t know what it is. So it’s not like Roy’s information would come as a complete surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5671 "2013-05-10T22:25:39Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Do the good guys even know Xykon’s plans for the gate, or that Redcloak has lied to him? I can’t see how they would. A good question. I think they have the pieces that would allow them to figure this out but I don’t know if they’ve put them together. But even if Roy doesn’t know all the nuances about Redcloak’s plans, he’s personally been told by Shojo that the Snarl would destroy the world if it were released and Xykon has told him he wants to rule the world not destroy it. So there’s the minimum amount Roy needs to know. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 10, 2013, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5672 "2013-05-10T22:44:21Z")
Yes, but that means it could be used as the ultimate blackmail weapon. “Give me whatever I want, or I’ll release the Snarl and destroy the world” It’s likely they assume that’s Xykon’s plan anyway. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5673 "2013-05-13T06:32:16Z")
[887 is up.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0887.html) Some hilarious and touching vignettes in there. My faves are Julia frowning at Roy’s statue while he smirks, Elan having a blast on the dinosaur, and the tender romance of Banjo the Clown. Is that a paper heart someone is dangling over the puppets’ heads? Heh. Would V be subject to falling under the same enchantment should V walk in? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5674 "2013-05-13T06:50:07Z")
Very cool artistic method there. Is that all supposed to be happening in Roy’s swirly eye? It looks like it could be a swirly eye inside a face of Roy’s skin tone… ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5675 "2013-05-13T07:05:45Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Heh. Would V be subject to falling under the same enchantment should V walk in? One assumes so, pending saving throw. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5676 "2013-05-13T08:21:21Z")
I couldn’t quite figure out what the last few tiny ones were pictures of beyond Elan riding a dinosaur - there’s one with a group of people doing something, one that looks like OChul and the MITD meeting up again, and the last is Elan (?) holding something. Anyone with better eyesight than mine have any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5677 "2013-05-13T08:55:23Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Heh. Would V be subject to falling under the same enchantment should V walk in? Maybe. Wizards have good Will saving throws, and I assume this is Will. Will is (if I recall) Wisdom related, and I don’t know if V has a good Wisdom stat. It’s not a half bad dump stat for a wizard, but the traditional dump stat for wizards is Strength. However, the group that’s actually under the spell are really the poster children for crappy Will saves: a fighter, a rogue, a ranger, and a dumb bard. Normally bards have good Will saves, but if common sense is any indication of Wisdom, Elan’s got shit-all in that department. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5678 "2013-05-13T09:33:55Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > \ and the last is Elan (?) holding something. Anyone with better eyesight than mine have any ideas? The OOTS forum is calling it a “lollipop”, which does seem Elan-ish. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5679 "2013-05-13T09:58:38Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I couldn’t quite figure out what the last few tiny ones were pictures of beyond Elan riding a dinosaur - there’s one with a group of people doing something, one that looks like OChul and the MITD meeting up again, and the last is Elan (?) holding something. Anyone with better eyesight than mine have any ideas? after Elan rides the dino: - OOTS walk with Hinjo & Lien - O’Chul reunites with his friend under the umbrella - Elan gets a lollipop. \* Next panel is very faint, but I think I see V and Roy. After that, it’s just blank panels \*reference to his last line [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0287.html), and getting his wish [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0298.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5680 "2013-05-13T10:10:19Z")
I am impressed. Thanks, **PM**! ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5681 "2013-05-13T11:41:06Z")
Interesting how distant Elan is in Haley’s golden ending. He’s there, but barely. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=283) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=285)