# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 285
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5682 "2013-05-13T12:21:51Z")
I hope that we didn’t just see the happy ending that the Oracle promised for Elan. That prophesy is ominous all of a sudden. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5683 "2013-05-13T12:44:10Z")
Interesting. Durkon comes back in the fantasy, but Belkar stays dead. In fact, I don’t think there’s even one of his fantasies in the panels (there would have to be one where he throws Windstrider into a big vat of glue, at least :p). Seems like Brain Hinjo’s pep talk and Belkar’s subsequent shift in attitude hasn’t registered yet - they still don’t think of him as part of the team. It could be even said that his death is part of the fantasy in the first place. That’s not very nice. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5684 "2013-05-13T12:50:10Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Interesting. Durkon comes back in the fantasy, but Belkar stays dead. Not only that but Roy (and V) are walking away from Belkar’s grave with Roy giving an obvious “See ya” wave while Elan and Haley grieve. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5685 "2013-05-13T13:16:09Z")
> [@](#): > > It could be even said that his death is part of the fantasy in the first place. That’s not very nice. Well, no, but then, Belkar isn’t very nice, either. He’s an evil psychopathic monster, justified only by the fact that he’s fighting even worse monsters. He still needs to be dealt with eventually. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5686 "2013-05-13T13:35:12Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Not only that but Roy (and V) are walking away from Belkar’s grave with Roy giving an obvious “See ya” wave while Elan and Haley grieve. I initially thought that was just another view of Roy waving to his dad but I think you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5687 "2013-05-13T13:48:33Z")
You know what would be really bad? If this was the end of the book and Rich went on hiatus for 6 months. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5688 "2013-05-13T14:09:32Z")
Interesting problem with this last installment is that we don’t know how much time is passing while the Order is living out these illusions/fantasies in their heads. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5689 "2013-05-13T14:13:42Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Spells last for a set time, and most of the Draketooths were high enough level that many of their illusions would last for weeks. Remember the schedule in [842](Spells last for a set time, and most of the Draketooths were high enough level that many of their illusions would last for weeks. Remember the schedule in)? Haley even pointed out that the only illusions left would be the ones that lasted for weeks or months. AD&D used to have a spell called “Permanency”, or something like that. Did it survive the transition to 3.5+ ? ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5690 "2013-05-13T14:41:40Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > I hope that we didn’t just see the happy ending that the Oracle promised for Elan. That prophesy is ominous all of a sudden. I’m sure that Burlew will jerk the readers around with that interpretation for a while. I’m also sure that he’s not going to spend however many years of storytelling to end with “and then the Snarl breaks loose and eats the multiverse. The end.” ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5691 "2013-05-13T14:53:03Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > AD&D used to have a spell called “Permanency”, or something like that. > > Did it survive the transition to 3.5+ ? Here’s the spell you’re thinking of: > **[Permanency :: d20srd.org](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/permanency.htm)** It looks as if you can cast it upon objects and it would probably be trivially easy for someone like Draketooth to do so. But I can’t yet find any spell or item that to which you’d cast permanency that’s doing what’s being described in this comic. In fact, comparing the list of spells that can be made permanent to what’s shown in #886 and #887, this particular one looks extremely complex. As in, I’d guess the caster would have to be well above level 17 to try it. So either the attached list is incomplete, or Rich is taking liberties (perhaps by making up a high level spell). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5692 "2013-05-13T15:08:00Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > Interesting how distant Elan is in Haley’s golden ending. He’s there, but barely. That may indicate that scene is from Elan’s fantasy rather than Haley’s. He wants her to be happy so he’s imagining her in a room full of treasure. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5693 "2013-05-13T15:29:40Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That may indicate that scene is from Elan’s fantasy rather than Haley’s. He wants her to be happy so he’s imagining her in a room full of treasure. I think all of these are Roy’s fantasies. The swirl looks like a close-up of a single eye. And if it was meant to represent the fantasies of different group members, surely there would be a panel for Belkar. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5694 "2013-05-13T15:38:08Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Very cool artistic method there. Is that all supposed to be happening in Roy’s swirly eye? It looks like it could be a swirly eye inside a face of Roy’s skin tone… I think so. That explains why Belkar’s dead in the fantasy: Roy knows the prophecy. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5695 "2013-05-13T15:45:56Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > I think all of these are Roy’s fantasies. The swirl looks like a close-up of a single eye. And if it was meant to represent the fantasies of different group members, surely there would be a panel for Belkar. I don’t know. Most of the images could be Roy’s. But the images of Nale and Tarquin reconciling with Elan? Elan riding a dinosaur or having a lollipop? And most implausibly, Banjo getting a girlfriend? I have a hard time believing Roy would imagine these things. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5696 "2013-05-13T16:17:33Z")
One thing I was wondering–did Durkon cast a protection spell on Belkar, like protection from evil or something? The protection from alignment spells render the subject immune to certain mind control effects. Belkar’s absence from the fantasies could be due to a temporary immunity to the effect, and that immunity might enable him to rescue the others. Total wild shot theory here with plenty of holes I can anticipate in it (can’t open the SRD here, but I’d be mildly surprised if it covered phantasms; also I can’t quite remember which protection went on Belkar), but if it’s right or something like it is right, I wanna say I called it! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5697 "2013-05-13T16:39:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > One thing I was wondering–did Durkon cast a protection spell on Belkar, like protection from evil or something? The protection from alignment spells render the subject immune to certain mind control effects. Belkar’s absence from the fantasies could be due to a temporary immunity to the effect, and that immunity might enable him to rescue the others. Hmmm. Maybe. I do notice that Belkar’s eyes are swirly in the previous strip, though, just like everybody else’s. Hard for me to conclude immunity from that. What’s confusing me is, how does anyone in the OOTS know that a happy ending would involve O-Chul reuniting with the MitD? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5698 "2013-05-13T16:48:04Z")
Presumably O-Chul told them about how he escaped. He certainly shared plenty of other intelligence; I doubt he would have left that part out. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5699 "2013-05-13T16:51:06Z")
Does O-chul know what the MiTD is? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5700 "2013-05-13T16:54:09Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Does O-chul know what the MiTD is? Probably not…he never saw it any better than we did (it’s hidden in what’s pretty much a perpetual Darkness spell) and I never got the impression that the MITD knows what it is itself, so it couldn’t have told him. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5701 "2013-05-13T16:59:41Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Interesting. Durkon comes back in the fantasy, but Belkar stays dead. That would fit with it (at least that part) being Roy’s fantasy (“I knew the little SOB was lying!”) > [@mlees](#): > > Does O-chul know what the MiTD is? A well-meaning but naive creature being exploited by Xykon and Redcloak. That would be sufficient knowledge (which O-Chul presumably communicated after his escape) to support this part of the fantasy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=284) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=286)