# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 298
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5942 "2013-06-18T18:15:18Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > The LG’s _True Seeing_ and _Detect Magic_ will easily see through Elan’s illusory wall. A fight ensues. One of the OotS will have the heart-wrenching job of dispatching a negative-hit-point Durkon with a coup de grâce. > > Well, maybe not yet. Nah, Durkon can’t be taken out yet. He still has to return home to fulfill Odin’s prophecy. My money is still on Malack being killed before we’re done with this gate, and evil vampire Durkon rejoining the Order. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5943 "2013-06-18T18:42:20Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > Regardless of what comes of this, I have to say that Girard was a magnificent bastard. Based on past history, it’s not like Girard to make a non-explodey surprise like that. Which may be why Elan is in such a hurry to leave the room. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5944 "2013-06-18T18:58:54Z")
You mean, Nale. ---
**Author:** ![Foggy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foggy/32/1082_2.png) [@Foggy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Foggy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5945 "2013-06-18T21:59:45Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Based on past history, it’s not like Girard to make a non-explodey surprise like that. Which may be why Elan is in such a hurry to leave the room. It’s Nale, Mr President That’s what I was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5946 "2013-06-18T22:09:25Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Based on past history, it’s not like Girard to make a non-explodey surprise like that. Which may be why Elan is in such a hurry to leave the room. I dunno. Nale doesn’t have the (0) (0) alarmed eyes, just the usual V-brow, denoting that he’s pissed off. I foresee ranting, not 'sploding. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5947 "2013-06-19T01:10:21Z")
Nale may not be wise, but he is genre saavy. If he stuck around, it would have blown up. Those who run away survive a close brush with death if they are good guys and a fizzling squib if they are bad. Either way, Tarquin is correct: the way to snag the prize is to saunter in when the good guys are just about to grab the McGuffin. LG won’t run through the fake wall, as it was constructed on a side with no doorway. Not having Malaak see Oots and say nothing would be a disappointment, so it will probably happen. Unless The Giant thinks of something subverting, which he usually does. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5948 "2013-06-19T01:15:08Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Nale may not be wise, but he is genre saavy. Since when is Nale genre savvy? I mean, to some degree or another almost every character has some GS, else how could they lampoon and lampshade things so often? Hence V bitching about fate being a two-copper whore to the plot that one time, amongst other things. But Elan and Tarquin are the intensely GS-aware characters, while Nale is no more GS than any one random person in the stickverse IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5949 "2013-06-19T01:37:15Z")
> [@Agent\_Foxtrot](#): > > The LG’s _True Seeing_ and _Detect Magic_ will easily see through Elan’s illusory wall. A fight ensues. One of the OotS will have the heart-wrenching job of dispatching a negative-hit-point Durkon with a coup de grâce. > > Well, maybe not yet. Vampires and vampire spawn don’t get coup-de-graced…once they hit 0 hp, they go gaseous form and have to get back to their coffin or be destroyed. Of course, Durkon never got a coffin, did he? > [@](#): > > A vampire heals 5 points of damage each round so long as it has at least 1 hit point. If reduced to 0 hit points in combat, it automatically assumes gaseous form and attempts to escape. It must reach its coffin home within 2 hours or be utterly destroyed. (It can travel up to nine miles in 2 hours.) Any additional damage dealt to a vampire forced into gaseous form has no effect. Once at rest in its coffin, a vampire is helpless. It regains 1 hit point after 1 hour, then is no longer helpless and resumes healing at the rate of 5 hit points per round. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5950 "2013-06-19T01:39:24Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Since when is Nale genre savvy? Ah well, there goes that theory. I had thought that both brothers had the drama bug but I see from [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) that only Elan is suppose to have that in spades. Then again, Nale _has_ put a lot of effort into the LG’s ‘Evil Opposites’ theme. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5951 "2013-06-19T01:49:43Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Ah well, there goes that theory. I had thought that both brothers had the drama bug but I see from [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html) that only Elan is suppose to have that in spades. Then again, Nale _has_ put a lot of effort into the LG’s ‘Evil Opposites’ theme. Ah, precisely the strip I was thinking of. Also, well, everything Nale has done so far of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5952 "2013-06-19T01:56:35Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Since when is Nale genre savvy? How about the previous strip where Nale broke the illusion by being GS? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5953 "2013-06-19T01:57:50Z")
Well, he DID realize on his own that he was trapped in an illusion solely due to drama conventions (or at least knowing his brother’s love of drama conventions, but that requires some knowledge of them himself). So he does have some skill in them — just not enough to override his arrogance and power hunger. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5954 "2013-06-19T02:02:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Well, he DID realize on his own that he was trapped in an illusion solely due to drama conventions (or at least knowing his brother’s love of drama conventions, but that requires some knowledge of them himself). So he does have some skill in them — just not enough to override his arrogance and power hunger. Ha, good point. I agree. He’s just dwarfed in savvy by Elan and Tarquin, two savvy-ninjas. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5955 "2013-06-19T02:36:45Z")
Here’s something interesting: we know that Xykon and Redcloak have the correct co-ordinates to the gate. That means that, unless this is a double-bluff and the gate is actually inside the temple, Xykon won’t even be headed to this temple. That would mean that the OOTS wouldn’t even have a head start–they’d have to mount an assault on wherever the real gate is, _after_ dealing with Tarquin, Malack, and the LG, and after getting out of the pyramid. Given that we know this arc is at least around the 3/4 mark done, that means it’s probably a double-bluff. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5956 "2013-06-19T07:41:32Z")
> [@Trepa\_Mayfield](#): > > Here’s something interesting: we know that Xykon and Redcloak have the correct co-ordinates to the gate. That means that, unless this is a double-bluff and the gate is actually inside the temple, Xykon won’t even be headed to this temple. That would mean that the OOTS wouldn’t even have a head start–they’d have to mount an assault on wherever the real gate is, _after_ dealing with Tarquin, Malack, and the LG, and after getting out of the pyramid. Given that we know this arc is at least around the 3/4 mark done, that means it’s probably a double-bluff. Ha, that would have made for a funny scene if the theory that the gate is inside the cube is true. Nale and company leave the enclosure, and then muffled voices from inside the cube say _“Did you hear something Lord Xykon?” “Eh, nothing to worry about, just some losers.”_ ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5957 "2013-06-19T09:19:36Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > I’m expecting the Order to ultimately kill the Snarl itself, which would presumably render the gates harmless or nonexistent. There’s a throwaway line about how the Gods who created the Snarl were “perhaps more susceptible” to it; it felt to me like that was foreshadowing. That’s definitely not happening any time soon, though. My predictions about what’s going to happen in this strip have usually been way off the mark but here’s my current thinking: The Snarl has decided to create a planet (or universe) in its own right. It pulls creatures in in order to add them to its world. This world will either eventually be given to the goblins/hobgoblins as their new home or, even more twistily, all the humans will be moved there and all the monsters left behind, thuis explaining our current world. The second option is a bit of a cliche so I’ll assume the first one. I also can’t help but think that if Roy were aware of Redcloak and the Dark One’s actual agenda he might actually be sympathetic. Consider that in OtOoPCs Roy refuses to kill a group of orcs when he finds out that they’re not marauding but are merely trying to get good concert seats, even though as an LG fighter he could just as easily have slaughtered them all and gone on his way. I expect this to play some part when Xykon and Redcloak actually cast their spell in the big climax. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2013, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5958 "2013-06-19T09:23:15Z")
I, for one, buy that it’s not a bluff at all. Look at it this way : the seminal root of all Illusion is misdirection, right ? So why build a huge-ass pyramid on top of whatever it is you want to protect, when it sits in the middle of a huge desert ? If you want to be really careful about it, just throw some silent image on top of it, that it emits the least possible magic radiation… then go hogwild on the decoys. But since you’re dealing with people who _know_ you’re a con-man, put something at the heart of your overly elaborate decoy telling them it’s all a con. That way, they’ll think you’re trying to pull a fast one and spend even \*more \*time trying to crack the cypher, when there’s not even a cypher to begin with. As in the siege of Azure City: it’s a shell game, and the whole point of a shell game is not to leave the mark a chance. Which brings me to my next prediction : Nale might be fooled, and even Tarquin because he might just be too devious to think straight enough to figure it out (he’ll think hextuple bluff) - but Redcloak is going to see right through that shit. ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5959 "2013-06-21T13:18:07Z")
Strip #895 is up! [895 Plain Sight - Giant in the Playground Games](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0895.html) ---
**Author:** ![MegaBee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f0a364/32.png) [@MegaBee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MegaBee)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5960 "2013-06-21T13:22:46Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > If Girard went that route, it wouldn’t be that much harder to line the cavity in the stone with a thin sheet of lead–and that’s assuming the usual divination blockers, which include 1 foot of stone as well as a sheet of lead, aren’t enough to block Locate Object. The SRD doesn’t mention any other than lead, but it would be a reasonable extension as a house rule. Good call! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/5961 "2013-06-21T13:27:05Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I’m thinking Malack will notice them and will not deign to mention it because a) he’s pissed off at Nale (probably more so by something that will happen next strip, since Nale is angrily freaking in this one), b)and they’re not really a threat, so he’s willing to ignore them in honor of his friendship with Durkon. Durkon will notice them but do/say nothing because he’s under Malack’s thrall and Malack will keep him leashed. Good call on Malack. Also nice to see Roy using his architecture skills again. And of course the return of the lead sheeting gag. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=297) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=299)