# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 311
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6202 "2013-07-19T19:02:12Z")
And since the Order habitually break the fourth wall on game mechanics, you’d have to assume they know how many plusses their weapons have (Roy certainly does). But the concern, I guess, is that this whole “chemically-specific elementals” shtick is a new-ish one in the Stickverse, and they still haven’t figured out the capabilities of all the new beasties they keep running across. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6203 "2013-07-19T19:36:42Z")
Assuming it’s an elder earth elemental, it has [damage reduction 10/-](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm), which means 10 damage is subtracted off no matter what you’re using. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6204 "2013-07-19T19:38:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > [New one](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0902.html) > > Guess I was wrong about seeing sand. I like Elan’s contribution to getting Belkar back into the fight - 200 strips or so ago that would have been Haley or Roy’s line. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6205 "2013-07-19T20:15:30Z")
It seems like Berlew may have also been sick of the “hey, maybe they’ll jump into the rift!” speculation, and added Roy and Elan’s dialog in this comic to put the kabosh on it. Which doesn’t mean it couldn’t still happen, but it feels far less likely now, and it never felt all that likely to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2013, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6206 "2013-07-19T23:27:44Z")
I like the way that Redcloak’s orders are essentially protecting three members of the group. Having been ordered to kill Roy first, the elemental can’t make any lethal attacks against anyone else. The smart tactic for Roy would be to retreat to safety; he’d actually be helping his teammates by doing so. But his innate stubbornness keeps him in the fight. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6207 "2013-07-20T00:36:03Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > O-Chul wasn’t indestructible because he was paralysed, O-Chul was indestructible because he was O-Chul. Even when he wasn’t paralysed, this was a guy for whom “wait in the tank of acid for a shark to bite me” is a viable escape plan. Your explanation doesn’t work: Miko was [the most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) and the KRAKAKOOOM tore her in half, killing her. O-Chul was at the same proximate distance from the explosion as Miko and was instead blown a clear out of the castle, harmed but alive. The only consequential difference between them (besides gender) was that O-Chul was paralyzed. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6208 "2013-07-20T00:56:03Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Your explanation doesn’t work: Miko was [the most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) and the KRAKAKOOOM tore her in half, killing her. O-Chul was at the same proximate distance from the explosion as Miko and was instead blown a clear out of the castle, harmed but alive. The only consequential difference between them (besides gender) was that O-Chul was paralyzed. Paralysis makes you more vulnerable to damage, not less. And just because Miko is the “most powerful paladin” in the opinion of someone having a psychotic breakdown does not mean she is the best at every conceivable task. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6209 "2013-07-20T01:07:34Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Paralysis makes you more vulnerable to damage, not less. And just because Miko is the “most powerful paladin” in the opinion of someone having a psychotic breakdown does not mean she is the best at every conceivable task. Well, maybe my explanation doesn’t work either. So I’ll go back “O-Chul survived because it was funny”, which is really the only one that works. Also because Berlew wanted him around when V popped in to solo Xykon. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6210 "2013-07-20T01:43:37Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Your explanation doesn’t work: Miko was [the most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) and the KRAKAKOOOM tore her in half, killing her. O-Chul was at the same proximate distance from the explosion as Miko and was instead blown a clear out of the castle, harmed but alive. The only consequential difference between them (besides gender) was that O-Chul was paralyzed. Miko only thought about attacking. She was the most powerful in offense. O-Chul was the most powerful in defense. Burlew wrote that O-Chul had maximized his build for defense so he could survive anything. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6211 "2013-07-20T01:47:53Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Miko only thought about attacking. She was the most powerful in offense. O-Chul was the most powerful in defense. Burlew wrote that O-Chul had maximized his build for defense so he could survive anything. There’s bona fide Word of God on the issue? Awesome. Linky? ETA: also, how would one do that? Again, DnD noob, but hit points are tied to your level, right? Isn’t “survive anything” basically a measure of hit points? So wouldn’t optimizing your build for defense mean “leveling up as much as possible” which of course everyone does? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6212 "2013-07-20T01:48:08Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Your explanation doesn’t work: Miko was [the most powerful paladin in the sapphire guard](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0409.html) and the KRAKAKOOOM tore her in half, killing her. O-Chul was at the same proximate distance from the explosion as Miko and was instead blown a clear out of the castle, harmed but alive. The only consequential difference between them (besides gender) was that O-Chul was paralyzed. Well, you’re taking the word of a deranged ex-paladin for that, but that aside, it still doesn’t mean O-Chul couldn’t take more punishment than Miko. All it means is that his character is built differently. Miko may well have been more powerful in the sense of being capable of dealing more damage, and/or having more special offensive abilities, while still having less raw hit points and defensive abilities than O-Chul. Her stats, feats, and so forth have been optimized for DPS, while his are optimized for survival, making them very different characters. Based on the [Class and Level Geekery](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=282328) thread, Miko has at least 2 monk levels and 10 paladin levels. That’s 2d8+10d10 base hit points. Her constitution bonus is unknown, but there are no indications that it is exceptional; however, let’s assume she has a Con of 18 (roughly peak for a normal human), which is worth +4 hit points/die. O-Chul has at least 12 levels of fighter and paladin, for 12d10 base hit points, and the current consensus is that his Con is around 25, which is worth +7 hp/die. So, with average rolls for each, she would have about 112hp, and he would have 150. Even if she’s got 2 paladin levels on him, that would only bring her up to 131–still nearly 20 points less. And that’s assuming he hasn’t taken Toughness (a feat that adds bonus hit points) or other survival-oriented feats, which seems to be the sort of feats I would expect him to lean toward. Damage that would kill her outright would leave him with nearly as many hit points as an average 3rd or 4th level fighter. After all that, you have the sheer fickleness of the dice, or the possibility that Miko invoked the Chunky Salsa Rule by the way she destroyed the Gate. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6213 "2013-07-20T01:54:36Z")
**Balance** : thanks for all that. “Chunky Salsa Rule”? Basically an unsurvivable-by-anything critical hit? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6214 "2013-07-20T02:03:58Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > **Balance** : thanks for all that. “Chunky Salsa Rule”? Basically an unsurvivable-by-anything critical hit? nm, I found the TV tropes page. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6215 "2013-07-20T02:16:19Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > **Balance** : thanks for all that. “Chunky Salsa Rule”? Basically an unsurvivable-by-anything critical hit? Pretty much, yeah. It comes from _Shadowrun_, and refers to situations that bypass normal armor/wound rules–specifically explosions in small, enclosed spaces. (Picture throwing a fragmentation grenade down into a tank.) It’s generally formulated as some variation on “Any situation that would reduce a character/character’s head to the consistency of chunky salsa dip is fatal, regardless of other rules.” If you dare, here’s the [TVTropes entry](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChunkySalsaRule), which goes into rather graphic detail about it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6216 "2013-07-20T04:20:07Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > There’s bona fide Word of God on the issue? Awesome. Linky? Booky. Specifically, the author comments in _War and XP’s_. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6217 "2013-07-20T05:26:56Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Booky. Specifically, the author comments in _War and XP’s_. Fair-use pasty? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f08c70/32.png) [@Crowbar\_of\_Irony\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crowbar_of_Irony_3)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6218 "2013-07-20T05:56:01Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > There’s bona fide Word of God on the issue? Awesome. Linky? > > ETA: also, how would one do that? Again, DnD noob, but hit points are tied to your level, right? Isn’t “survive anything” basically a measure of hit points? So wouldn’t optimizing your build for defense mean “leveling up as much as possible” which of course everyone does? Thanks. Your Hit Points are tied to your Constitution score, and there are Feats which you can take to improve total Hit Points (Toughness), reduces incoming damage and allows you to resist the effects of spells better. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6219 "2013-07-20T06:28:46Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Fair-use pasty? 😛 ??? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6220 "2013-07-20T06:36:21Z")
Asking for a paste of the relevant section of the book that would fall under fair use. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6221 "2013-07-20T07:45:11Z")
I can’t copy and paste it. It’s a book. I could type it out I suppose if I get ambitious. We’ll see how I feel this weekend but I’m making no promises. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=310) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=312)