# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 321
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6402 "2013-07-31T16:39:37Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Sure he does. Getting Durkon on his team would \*devastate \*the Order. Remember, Nale doesn’t want to kill his enemies - he wants to crush them. Why does he think that Durkon would willingly join him? Just because he got vamped, and all Evil creatures are on the same team? A lot of the problem is that we don’t know how Burlew’s going to treat what getting vamped does to the victim’s personality. Is any of the original Durkon left? If so, when alive, he really didn’t like Nale, and since Durkon hates the undead, he probably also hates everything associated with putting him in this condition. Nale took care of the first part, but Malack was on Nale’s team when he did it, right? Why wouldn’t Durkon lash out at Nale too? At least, if I were Nale, I’d really worry about that. If there’s nothing left of the original Durkon, then Nale just killed off his master. I dunno whether a thrall would like that or hate that. Nale’s got a sky-high Charisma though, and maybe he can Bluff the Count with something like, “Your party abandoned you, left you alone in that pyramid to die. Why don’t you go return the favor?” Something like that. Seems risky though. The Count’s a great weapon, as long as you’ve got Big Daddy around who can keep him on a leash. If Malack were still around, then yeah, turn him loose on the Order and start popping popcorn as their former team mate wrecks shop. But that’s not the case now. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6403 "2013-07-31T17:24:23Z")
Evil Durkon is lawful. Maybe he’ll see being on the LG as his current commitment, and Nale as his leader. Malack was his master, but Malack (to Durkon) served Nale. Or maybe Durkon understood that Malack really served Tarquin, so lawful Durkon might see Tarquin (show he show up) as the local authority. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6404 "2013-07-31T17:49:40Z")
> [@ekedolphin](#): > > When Zz’dtri and Qarr rose into the air immediately after Z cast the spell against Malack, I figured they were going to race Durkon to the staff, but they just hovered above Nale and Malack. Do you suppose they did that to stay out of melee range? Note that Nale gets pretty scorched by the wind of a burning vampire (he’s got some injuries that he didn’t have at the beginning of the panel.) I imagine they just decided to hang out at a safe distance. Also, it may have been easier to draw 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6405 "2013-07-31T18:04:55Z")
I wonder if Helga is waiting in the wings? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6406 "2013-07-31T18:08:18Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I wonder if Helga is waiting in the wings? Soon to be… Vampelga! Flying _with_ her wings! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6407 "2013-07-31T19:44:04Z")
Durkon isn’t going to join the “local authority” just because he’s lawful. Much more likely, he’s going to join the team that he knows to be actively working against the destruction and/or subjugation of the world. Which is to say, the Order. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6408 "2013-07-31T20:19:43Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Soon to be… Vampelga! Flying _with_ her wings! Not really: she’s an evil cleric who can Command Undead. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6409 "2013-07-31T20:30:20Z")
BTW it’s Hilgya. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6410 "2013-07-31T20:40:08Z")
I’ve often wondered if Helga, erm, Hilgya (Damn it, you’ve got me doing it now.) was going to make a re-appearance. Probably not until they get to the Dwarven Homelands though. The LG is probably going to be short one healer once the Count leaves… FWIW, Nale [does know that the Order knows](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html) about Durkon’s…new condition. Which removes one reason for Nale to try and send the Count back to them. With this new and improved update rate, we’ll find out soon. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6411 "2013-07-31T20:40:56Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Evil Durkon is lawful. Maybe he’ll see being on the LG as his current commitment, and Nale as his leader. Malack was his master, but Malack (to Durkon) served Nale. Or maybe Durkon understood that Malack really served Tarquin, so lawful Durkon might see Tarquin (show he show up) as the local authority. Not a chance. If I suddenly went vampirically evil, there’s no freaking way I’d suddenly decide this asshole that my friends and I have been fighting/avoiding/bumping into is a good guy to follow. I’d think he looked mighty _tasty_… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6412 "2013-07-31T20:44:31Z")
At the same time, wouldn’t Durkon probably think, “This dude just eliminated my master, I don’t have a coffin or any protection from sin except this staff which has already been demonstrated can be easily forcibly removed. And I’m outnumbered. Now is not the time for a revenge attack.”? ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6413 "2013-08-01T04:44:12Z")
Can Nale successfully use Charm Person on a vampire? I think Nale would find aiming Durkon at the Order and either having him kill some or all of them, or them being forced to kill him, completely hilarious. The jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6414 "2013-08-01T06:15:58Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Can Nale successfully use Charm Person on a vampire? No, he’d have to use Charm Monster - Charm Person only works on creatures of the Humanoid type, while Durkon is now of the Undead type. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6415 "2013-08-01T07:48:19Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > At the same time, wouldn’t Durkon probably think, “This dude just eliminated my master, I don’t have a coffin or any protection from sin except this staff which has already been demonstrated can be easily forcibly removed. And I’m outnumbered. Now is not the time for a revenge attack.”? His own faith should have that covered, and there’s always the _Atonement_ spell if he does louse up. 😛 > [@Grumman](#): > > No, he’d have to use Charm Monster - Charm Person only works on creatures of the Humanoid type, while Durkon is now of the Undead type. No, again. _Charm Monster_ affects a single _living_ creature, all [undead](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm) are immune to _charm_. ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6416 "2013-08-01T08:27:33Z")
I think next time we see Durkula as a free vampire, he will be speaking with a Dwarven accent, indicating at least some of Durkon’s personality remains. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6417 "2013-08-01T11:05:07Z")
I wonder if he has been playing along with the evil gang all along, made his saving throw against being dominated by Mr. Lizard, but faked being dominated. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6418 "2013-08-01T11:37:14Z")
Due to the circumstances of his creation, does Durkon need a coffin? ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6419 "2013-08-01T12:11:47Z")
Per the SRD for [Vampire](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), vampires with 5 or more Hit Dice when alive, created via blood drain, come back as full fledged vampires 1-4 days afterwards, under the absolute control of the vampire that drained them: > [@](#): > > A humanoid or monstrous humanoid slain by a vampire’s energy drain rises as a vampire spawn 1d4 days after burial. > > If the vampire instead drains the victim’s Constitution to 0 or lower, the victim returns as a spawn if it had 4 or less HD and as a vampire if it had 5 or more HD. In either case, the new vampire or spawn is under the command of the vampire that created it and remains enslaved until its master’s destruction. So, there wasn’t a save to make: the Count was absolutely under the control of Malack until Malack decided to release him, or Malack kicked it. As to the coffin, vampires need one in order to regenerate, if they’ve been driven to zero hit points. Without a coffin, they’re destroyed two hours after they’ve been knocked down to zero and forced into gaseous form. The coffin also comes into play if the vampire wants to cross running water. They can cross it if they are within their coffin, or are aboard a ship, and are prohibited from it otherwise. (The ship rule is a little strange—how else is the coffin going to cross the water, if not aboard a ship or a boat? If a vampire can’t ride in a wagon, say, to cross a river, why is a ship different?) Now, since the Count was created via Malack’s staff, who knows how those rules will be changed? Maybe grabbing the staff fulfills the coffin requirement? I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6420 "2013-08-01T12:13:34Z")
> [@John\_DiFool](#): > > I wonder if he has been playing along with the evil gang all along, made his saving throw against being dominated by Mr. Lizard, but faked being dominated. Nah, there’s no saving throw to make. When you’re turned into a vampire, you’re automatically his thrall, unless he chooses to release you. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6421 "2013-08-01T12:51:39Z")
> [@Inner\_Stickler](#): > > At the same time, wouldn’t Durkon probably think, “This dude just eliminated my master, I don’t have a coffin or any protection from sin except this staff which has already been demonstrated can be easily forcibly removed. And I’m outnumbered. Now is not the time for a revenge attack.”? Maybe. Except Nale is badly injured and probably would have lost a straight up fight with Malack. Nale won and Malack died but it wasn’t because Nale was some master fighter, it was because he planned & exploited a cheap shot. If I run up and shove an unsuspecting prize fighter in front of a bus, I don’t think that would make his buddies say “This guy is too bad ass to fight”. Durkon wouldn’t let Nale just yoink the staff away a second time. I’ve no idea if Durkon will fight, flee or whatever but I can’t see it being because he’s in awe of Nale killing his master. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=320) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=322)