# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 325
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6482 "2013-08-03T14:04:30Z")
Zzdtri is evil, like the typical Drow, but he’s still very different from the stereotype in one key respect: He’s highly loyal. The typical Drow would have ditched Nale at the first sign of weakness, probably stabbing him in the back (figuratively and literally) in the process just to be sure. Working undercover for years on behalf of an employer who’s temporarily laid low is most uncharacteristic for the dark elves. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6483 "2013-08-03T14:20:06Z")
Have they ditched the daylight penalties for Drow? Back in the day, a dark elf fighting on the surface took a hit to their rolls. Then again, Z never displays any innate Drow abilities either (darkness, faerie fire). They dump all that? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6484 "2013-08-03T14:43:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Then again, Z never displays any innate Drow abilities either Just a random thought. Obviously, Z has some sort of disguise self spell. Maybe Ambassador Polozius is his true appearance, and the drow is a disguise. Is that possible? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6485 "2013-08-03T14:48:20Z")
They do still take penalties, but they’re small, and won’t affect a spellcaster much. If they’re suddenly exposed to bright light, they’re blinded for one round, then after that they just have a -1 to attack rolls, Search, and Spot (which a wizard doesn’t roll much of anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6486 "2013-08-03T15:04:20Z")
I wasn’t able to find the original _Unearthed Arcana_ Drow-as-PC rules online but the general sentiment seemed to be that Drow were watered down significantly (both benefits and penalties) from edition to edition. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6487 "2013-08-03T15:09:22Z")
Remind me, how do we know that Z is a drow as in subterranean elf and not an elf who happens to have black skin? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6488 "2013-08-03T15:18:33Z")
Well, [V mentions](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0049.html) Z’s people being banished from the sunlit realms. Seems he would know. Also Tarquin speaks to Z using the Drow hand language and mentioned the _Unearthed Arcana_ where the first official Drow-as-PC rules were put in book form (think there was an official _Dragon_ article about it first) ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6489 "2013-08-03T16:10:26Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > They do still take penalties, but they’re small, and won’t affect a spellcaster much. If they’re suddenly exposed to bright light, they’re blinded for one round, then after that they just have a -1 to attack rolls, Search, and Spot (which a wizard doesn’t roll much of anyway). There’s also a feat you can take - Daylight Adaptation - which eliminates the penalty altogether. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6490 "2013-08-04T02:34:43Z")
I’m still wondering what Nale wanting to kill Malak since he was nine was about. Could M have had something to do with the breakup of Nale and Elan’s parents’ breakup? ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6491 "2013-08-04T05:25:24Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I’m still wondering what Nale wanting to kill Malak since he was nine was about. Could M have had something to do with the breakup of Nale and Elan’s parents’ breakup? Possibly, but recall that Nale [del]is a dick[/del] has issues. [He tried to kill Elan](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0061.html) for refusing to join the Linear Guild, “No one denies me, Elan. Not father, not you, no one.” ## Maybe Malack took too much of Tarquin’s attention. One would hope that Nale would have better reasons for his resentment, but I’m afraid that lame ones would be in character. Given that Tarquin knows both his son and Malack well, I’m guessing that the latter’s death will neither surprise nor dismay him. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2013, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6492 "2013-08-04T10:21:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > There’s also a feat you can take - Daylight Adaptation - which eliminates the penalty altogether. I prefer Eberron’s solution: sunglasses. 😃 Incidentally, I’ve played two Drow characters, both evil but different from the usual dominatrix or Drizzt roles. One was the only daughter of a noble house who didn’t have a knack for divine magic or scheming, so her mother sent her off to hunt monsters with the men where she wouldn’t be a liability. The other was a mundane evil: a burglar who knew she was outnumbered anywhere she went, so she could be relied upon to be polite at least long enough to reach a safe vantage point. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6493 "2013-08-05T10:50:39Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Just a random thought. Obviously, Z has some sort of disguise self spell. Maybe Ambassador Polozius is his true appearance, and the drow is a disguise. Is that possible? I don’t think so … when [Tarquin and Malack unmask invisible Nale](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0820.html) and find out about the gates, they have this exchange: > [@](#): > > **Nale:** With true seeing, I suppose you knew about my drow spy from the start, too? > > **Tarquin:** Of course. Though I didn’t know he was really working for **you** until today, if that helps. I naturally assumed that the dark elf hierarchy was scouting me for a possible alliance against their surface kin. Though in retrospect, I guess I shouldn’t have sent them all those fruit baskets until I was absolutely certain… So it seems like Zz’dtri appears as a drow when looked at with True Seeing. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6494 "2013-08-05T12:18:49Z")
Good point. ---
**Author:** ![Garula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ea666f/32.png) [@Garula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Garula)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6495 "2013-08-05T14:24:29Z")
Alright, on the extremely off chance that my prediction turns out correct, I feel I must put it in writing. Durkon rejoins the order soon, probably in the next few strips. Roy in particular is against it and favors destroying Vampire Durkon, but is for whatever reason convinced to go along with it, probably after Durkon makes a strong case that he doesn’t want to see the world be destroyed and the Order desperately needs a cleric. Durkon demonstrates loyalty at some point, perhaps helping the party in spite of getting a better offer to join team evil. After things settle down, Roy goes to visit Durkon. He gives a heartfelt attempt at reconciliation, saying that he was wrong to assume this new Durkon is evil (reflecting Burlew’s view that race doesn’t define morality) and that he’s happy to have Durkon back. They make up and Roy leaves. At which point a blood drained corpse falls out of whatever hiding spot is closest. I’m certain Burlew will subvert my expectations, though, and that this prediction is completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6496 "2013-08-05T14:35:19Z")
Now that Durkon’s a vampire, can he go home? Would it count as returning “posthumously”? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6497 "2013-08-05T14:38:53Z")
> [@Double\_Foolscap](#): > > Now that Durkon’s a vampire, can he go home? Would it count as returning “posthumously”? Yep. Durkon has died. He just did so in manner that allows him to remain ambulatory, with full spell-casting prowess and intellect. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6498 "2013-08-05T14:47:30Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Yep. Durkon has died. He just did so in manner that allows him to remain ambulatory, with full spell-casting prowess and intellect. What is D&D’s theory on vampires? What makes the vampire dead as opposed to just really thirsty for blood and prone to sunburn? Is it a Buffy-like shell of the living animated by an evil demon with full memories sort of thing? Is it a lack of soul? If it’s the lack of soul thing, does that automatically catapult you into the evil realm? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6499 "2013-08-05T14:53:58Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Yep. Durkon has died. He just did so in manner that allows him to remain ambulatory, with full spell-casting prowess and intellect. I’ve always thought that sounded like the least convincing defense _ **ever** _ in a murder trial. Just imagine Harrison Ford insisting that _“I didn’t kill my wife!”_ And then follow it up with _“Because, uh, my wife was already dead! Yeah, she died back in '87; it’s just that she remained ambulatory, with her full intellect!”_ ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6500 "2013-08-05T15:01:07Z")
D&D vampires aren’t dead, they’re _undead_, powered by negative energy, and therefore universally evil. I don’t think their soul is supposed to be gone though - if it was, then a spell like true resurrection would work without putting down the vamp first: > [@](#): > > You can revive someone killed by a death effect or someone who has been turned into an undead creature and then destroyed. This spell can also resurrect elementals or outsiders, but it can’t resurrect constructs or undead creatures. So, a bit of a body-horror thing going on as well. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2013, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6501 "2013-08-05T15:31:00Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > Alright, on the extremely off chance that my prediction turns out correct, I feel I must put it in writing. I think that would be out of character. Durkon offered to slay vampire Malak, then raise him as his former mortal self. I think it likely that he will want the same thing for himself. Yes, he will rejoin the Order. I don’t think Roy will be opposed, though. I think they will accept him straight away. Nor will they want to destroy him, until they locate a cleric for the rez. Which could be most of the next book. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=324) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=326)