# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 329
**Author:** ![Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambrosio_Spinola)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6562 "2013-08-06T20:52:12Z")
This may be an incredibly stupid question, but on reading the vampire template rules it looks like a vampire should be turned by a holy symbol, and an evil cleric needs an unholy symbol to channel his skills. Did Durkon’s holy symbol become unholy when he was vampirized? If so, how? If not, how is he using cleric abilities (and shouldn’t having a holy symbol around his neck be very irritating for him)? Not a big D&D player, and I sorta can’t even believe this is bothering me. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6563 "2013-08-06T21:08:00Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > This may be an incredibly stupid question, but on reading the vampire template rules it looks like a vampire should be turned by a holy symbol, and an evil cleric needs an unholy symbol to channel his skills. Did Durkon’s holy symbol become unholy when he was vampirized? If so, how? If not, how is he using cleric abilities (and shouldn’t having a holy symbol around his neck be very irritating for him)? Not a big D&D player, and I sorta can’t even believe this is bothering me. It is an interesting question. Presumably Durkon’s Holy Symbol is still engraved with all the usual inscriptions to Thor, and whatever enchantments go along with it. Perhaps part of Malack’s Raise Vampire spell handles conversions of holy symbols to unholy ones as well. At least, if I were the DM, I’d houserule that way. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6564 "2013-08-06T21:13:51Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > This may be an incredibly stupid question, but on reading the vampire template rules it looks like a vampire should be turned by a holy symbol, and an evil cleric needs an unholy symbol to channel his skills. Did Durkon’s holy symbol become unholy when he was vampirized? If so, how? If not, how is he using cleric abilities (and shouldn’t having a holy symbol around his neck be very irritating for him)? Not a big D&D player, and I sorta can’t even believe this is bothering me. Good catch. It, along with his armor, did change color, which I’m assuming meant it went from a holy to an unholy symbol. Compare [#876](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0876.html), pre-vamp, to [#878](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html), post-vamp. I imagine the spell from Malack’s staff had the conversion/desecration as part of its effects. ---
**Author:** ![sohvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/96bed5/32.png) [@sohvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sohvan)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6565 "2013-08-06T21:16:10Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > This may be an incredibly stupid question, but on reading the vampire template rules it looks like a vampire should be turned by a holy symbol, and an evil cleric needs an unholy symbol to channel his skills. Did Durkon’s holy symbol become unholy when he was vampirized? If so, how? If not, how is he using cleric abilities (and shouldn’t having a holy symbol around his neck be very irritating for him)? Not a big D&D player, and I sorta can’t even believe this is bothering me. Can a holy symbol be any object? Maybe Malack’s staff is Durkon’s new holy symbol. As a vampire cleric he’ll get spells from some evil god won’t he? Possibly Nergal since that’s the god Malack worshipped. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6566 "2013-08-06T21:49:23Z")
> [@sohvan](#): > > Can a holy symbol be any object? Maybe Malack’s staff is Durkon’s new holy symbol. It could be, but Malack did not appear to be using it as one: he was still able to cast Slay Living even after Nale disarmed him. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6567 "2013-08-06T22:03:51Z")
> [@sohvan](#): > > Can a holy symbol be any object? Maybe Malack’s staff is Durkon’s new holy symbol. As a vampire cleric he’ll get spells from some evil god won’t he? Possibly Nergal since that’s the god Malack worshipped. Heh. Can a vampire be “turned” by any old object? (IMO: no.) **mlees** , holding up a moldy old boot: “Begone, foul creature!” **Durkula** , smirking: “You go to have faith, Herr Doctor… wait. What is that SMELL?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6568 "2013-08-06T22:19:33Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > Heh. Can a vampire be “turned” by any old object? (IMO: no.) Well, in D&D terms, you can’t just grab any object and say, “This is my holy symbol now!” and have it work. It needs to be properly consecrated and such. However, there’s no particular reason the consecration ritual has to be performed on a medallion you wear around your neck - it could be done on a sword, or a shield, or something more prosaic like a cup - the Holy Grail would make a heck of a holy symbol. As a GM, I’d rule that it has to be an object that shows respect for the deity in question, so not some rotten old boots. And it should incorporate the actual symbol of the deity in some way - emblazoned on the shield, say, or worked into the hilt of the sword. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6569 "2013-08-06T22:20:25Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > This may be an incredibly stupid question, but on reading the vampire template rules it looks like a vampire should be turned by a holy symbol, and an evil cleric needs an unholy symbol to channel his skills. Did Durkon’s holy symbol become unholy when he was vampirized? If so, how? If not, how is he using cleric abilities (and shouldn’t having a holy symbol around his neck be very irritating for him)? Not a big D&D player, and I sorta can’t even believe this is bothering me. I asked something similar when Durkon was fighting Malack (and Durkon’s holy symbol was in plain sight). The simple answer is that holy symbols don’t passively have much effect, they need to be actively invoked to do anything. So it’s not going to burn his skin with its touch or anything. Durkon’s holy symbol’s color changed when he became a vampire though so even if it didn’t actively turn into a symbol of some other deity, maybe it’s just a “corrupted” symbol to Thor and that’s good enough for the (seemingly) deity-less Durkon right now. Like a blackened, half-melted crucifix or something. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6570 "2013-08-06T22:21:57Z")
According to the rules, any undead at all can be turned (caused to run away), or even destroyed if it’s a weak one, by a good (or maybe neutral) cleric using a holy symbol of his or her deity. In addition, a vampire specifically will recoil from _any_ holy symbol that’s strongly presented by anyone. This is a less severe reaction than an actual turning, but it’s also guaranteed to work, and isn’t restricted to clerics. There are no limits on what form a holy symbol can take (maybe Banjo’s holy symbols are shaped like Whoopee cushions or something, but they’d still work), but a holy symbol is still a specific thing, and they have to be specifically made as holy symbols. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2013, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6571 "2013-08-06T22:37:17Z")
Incidentally, I had a situation very nearly identical to this come up in a campaign I was running once. You know how I handled it? Totally forgot about it. Never even occurred to me that it would be a problem until this thread. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6572 "2013-08-07T02:05:15Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > According to the rules, any undead at all can be turned (caused to run away), or even destroyed if it’s a weak one, by a good (or maybe neutral) cleric using a holy symbol of his or her deity. In addition, a vampire specifically will recoil from _any_ holy symbol that’s strongly presented by anyone. This is a less severe reaction than an actual turning, but it’s also guaranteed to work, and isn’t restricted to clerics. So, wouldn’t this have been a good thing for Durkon to do in his battle with Malack? Or did he try it and I forgot? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6573 "2013-08-07T03:02:59Z")
Yes, it probably would have been a good idea, and no, he didn’t try it. To which the explanation is that characters sometimes make mistakes, and sometimes pay dearly for those mistakes. To be clear, he _did_ try Turning, but it failed to work (partly because Malack used the corresponding ability to counteract it). He did not, however, try just strongly presenting his holy symbol. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6574 "2013-08-07T04:39:44Z")
I saw it speculated elsewhere that Durkon’s level was at least 13 (to cast Resurrection) before being vamped. With +8 vampire levels, that makes him effective 21st level, is that about right? Does that mean Durkon pretty much won’t get any XP from here on out, because few things except, I dunno, Xykon and Red Cloak approach his level? Is this what Malack was referring to [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) when he said that finding appropriate challenges was difficult, meaning Malack would get no XP except in exceptional situations? ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6575 "2013-08-07T05:19:18Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > I saw it speculated elsewhere that Durkon’s level was at least 13 (to cast Resurrection) before being vamped. With +8 vampire levels, that makes him effective 21st level, is that about right? Does that mean Durkon pretty much won’t get any XP from here on out, because few things except, I dunno, Xykon and Red Cloak approach his level? Is this what Malack was referring to [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0873.html) when he said that finding appropriate challenges was difficult, meaning Malack would get no XP except in exceptional situations? It depends on how XP is awarded. He probably won’t get any directly from killing most enemies. However, sometimes XP is awarded for overcoming specific challenges, and we know that roleplaying XP exists in the setting, because Belkar abused it in an early strip. Durkon has some really rich roleplaying potential ahead, for which he could plausibly receive XP. I don’t know if he could get enough to actually level again, but he might get enough to make some magic items. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6576 "2013-08-07T05:23:31Z")
Thanks, **Balance**. It surely says something about Durk’s new bad-assness that he may get 0 XP for killing Z-person, a major thorn in the OOTS’ side (certainly V’s) since way back. Is the LG now to Durkon as Hobgoblins were to Belkar [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)? That badass? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6577 "2013-08-07T06:05:41Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Thanks, **Balance**. It surely says something about Durk’s new bad-assness that he may get 0 XP for killing Z-person, a major thorn in the OOTS’ side (certainly V’s) since way back. Is the LG now to Durkon as Hobgoblins were to Belkar [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)? That badass? To the extent that he’s a CoDzilla (Cleric or Druid who uses magic to out-fight a Fighter), the Vampire template is going to be quite useful. He’s stronger and tougher, has fast healing, gets an extra free attack, and that free attack drains two levels per hit. To the extent he’s an as-intended Cleric, it doesn’t do much. He gets +2 Wisdom but can no longer convert spells into healing at will. And yeah, +8 ECL is the point where the DMG says “this probably isn’t a combat challenge any more”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6578 "2013-08-07T09:07:30Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > He has a fang-lisp layered on top of the brogue. “I also _haf_ potions.” > > Someone on another forum called it “Scotch-sylvanian”. I thought that too, but I went back and checked and he did say “haf” before. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6579 "2013-08-07T10:07:36Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > It depends on how XP is awarded. He probably won’t get any directly from killing most enemies. However, sometimes XP is awarded for overcoming specific challenges, and we know that roleplaying XP exists in the setting, because Belkar abused it in an early strip. Durkon has some really rich roleplaying potential ahead, for which he could plausibly receive XP. I don’t know if he could get enough to actually level again, but he might get enough to make some magic items. My DM always had a very casual attitude toward XP. It was basically, “OK, dungeon’s over. Everybody goes up a level.” ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6580 "2013-08-07T12:51:13Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Thanks, **Balance**. It surely says something about Durk’s new bad-assness that he may get 0 XP for killing Z-person, a major thorn in the OOTS’ side (certainly V’s) since way back. Is the LG now to Durkon as Hobgoblins were to Belkar [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)? That badass? Don’t forget that Z was severely wounded after the explosion so he wouldn’t be worth a full CR value anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2013, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6581 "2013-08-07T13:06:35Z")
Speaking of XP and leveling, how many XP did Nale get for taking apart Malack? Is it likely that killing something with something like CR 15 (Or more? What is the CR for a Lizardman Vampire with 12 levels of Cleric?) would give Nale most of what he needed to gain a level? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=328) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=330)