# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 336
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6702 "2013-08-13T16:25:03Z")
But if you don’t like your new body, why not rinse and repeat? Surely some insanely rich guy has tried it. Hell, I’d expect Tarquin to have a plan like that so he could keep his empire longer. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6703 "2013-08-13T16:30:17Z")
Yes, reincarnate is the cheapest and easiest way to bring someone back from the dead, but you have no control over what you come back as. Not all the options are particularly desirable. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6704 "2013-08-13T16:32:40Z")
And I assume the level reduction prevents people from spending too much time getting themselves offed and reincarnated? ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6705 "2013-08-13T16:36:44Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… no. He says it’s not available to **everyone** , not anyone. So some people can have it. The context of that quote makes it pretty damn clear that he meant no one gets it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6706 "2013-08-13T16:38:35Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > But if you don’t like your new body, why not rinse and repeat? Surely some insanely rich guy has tried it. Hell, I’d expect Tarquin to have a plan like that so he could keep his empire longer. Because every time you come back from the dead, you lose an experience level. If your first level, you permanently lose two points of Con. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6707 "2013-08-13T16:40:19Z")
I’m not sure about 3.5, but in 1st and 2nd, Reincarnate could end up with the affected person coming back as an animal. An INTELLIGENT animal, true, but still…not a humanoid. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6708 "2013-08-13T16:41:22Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Because every time you come back from the dead, you lose an experience level. If your first level, you permanently lose two points of Con. Do they still have System Shock rolls? That’s another good reason for not trading in early just because you don’t care for the way your ears stick out. ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6709 "2013-08-13T16:41:48Z")
Ah, fair enough. So it’s not a reliable method and has a lot of penalties. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![MHaye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bbe5ce/32.png) [@MHaye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MHaye)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6710 "2013-08-13T17:00:54Z")
> [@oft\_wears\_hats](#): > > But if you don’t like your new body, why not rinse and repeat? Surely some insanely rich guy has tried it. Hell, I’d expect Tarquin to have a plan like that so he could keep his empire longer. When you are reincarnated, you lose one level/HD. If you have only one HD, your Con score is calculated as follows: -Take your Con score before death (retaining any Con drain but not Con damage), remove racial adjustments to Con, apply new racial adjustments, then reduce Con by 2. If the result is 0 or less, you cannot be reincarnated. So basically, frequent reincarnations are a one-way ticket to permanent death. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6711 "2013-08-13T17:20:55Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Do they still have System Shock rolls? That’s another good reason for not trading in early just because you don’t care for the way your ears stick out. No, they’re out. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6712 "2013-08-13T17:49:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I’m not sure about 3.5, but in 1st and 2nd, Reincarnate could end up with the affected person coming back as an animal. An INTELLIGENT animal, true, but still…not a humanoid. Not everyone minded this. One guy came back as a cave bear, which made him a little one-dimensional but _extremely_ good at the one thing he did, and also led to the following running joke in the campaign: DM: Where does the cave bear go in the marching order? Entire party (unison): _ANYWHERE HE LIKES!_ ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6713 "2013-08-13T19:20:10Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Malack says “the person I am today” will be annihilated. He (in my opinion) is referring to his power gain from his vampirism, his long term goals aided by his eternal ‘life’ span and status. A resurrected Malack wouldn’t be as powerful or able to carry out his goal of outliving Tarquin, taking the kingdom and starting a reign of death in Nergal’s name. I lean towards the theory that a resurrected Malack would be that 200-year-dead shaman with no memory of his time as a vampire. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6714 "2013-08-13T20:00:56Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I lean towards the theory that a resurrected Malack would be that 200-year-dead shaman with no memory of his time as a vampire. I don’t see any reason for that to be the case. Biological construction vs spiritual construction works differently in RPGs. Malack was able to remember his past life despite being, in the words of Redcloak, “nothing but bits of skin and bone and dark energy glued together by magic into the shape of a man”. So it would seem that memories are held in the spirit/soul than as part of the body. And, if that’s the case, I don’t see why the memories gained when that spirit is inhabiting an animated corpse are lost but the ones from an inert lump of dead brain tissue remain in unlife. Or, in Xykon’s case, he doesn’t even have dead brain matter to rely on. Roy [remembered things from his time](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0666.html) as a disembodied soul on earth even after his resurrection. Why would Malack lose all of his memories if he was resurrected? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6715 "2013-08-13T20:45:21Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Why would Malack lose all of his memories if he was resurrected? Because to me, that’s what his statement strongly implies happens. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6716 "2013-08-13T20:50:10Z")
In 3.0, you could still come back as animals (or maybe fey). In 3.5, though, it’s all humanoids (with a footnote that the DM should work up a new table for nonhumanoid subjects). Which is a shame, because the randomness of the old version was potentially a lot of fun. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6717 "2013-08-13T21:06:00Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Once someone has actually died of old age, no, it’s too late. However, if someone on the verge of dying of old age is killed in some other way, you can use Reincarnate to get them a new young adult body (some side effects may occur). That’s what I got from the descriptions of the spells on [d20srd.org](http://d20srd.org), but I thought I remembered someone (perhaps in this thread, or another OotS thread, or a thread somewhere on the GiantITP forums?) mentioning that some convoluted procedure was one of the only ways known to circumvent the “no bringing back someone who died of old age” rule. Is there really no possible way at all, once it has actually happened? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6718 "2013-08-13T21:25:22Z")
For reference: [Raise Dead](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) [Reincarnate](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) [Resurrection](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) [True Resurrection](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6719 "2013-08-13T21:35:34Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > For reference: > > [Raise Dead](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/raiseDead.htm) > [Reincarnate](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm) > [Resurrection](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/resurrection.htm) > [True Resurrection](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trueResurrection.htm) [Wish](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/wish.htm) and [Miracle](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm) would probably work too. Though Wish’s description mentions that you’d need two separate wishes to bring back a destroyed entity. If Burlew thinks True Rez is game-breaking, I wonder what his thoughts on those two spells are? I don’t think death from old age can be overcome by any of these methods though. I think you’ve got to do something like lichdom, creating a bunch of clones, becoming a Marut, or any of the methods in this [lengthy blog post.](http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5996.0) Edit: I guess you could always go for Godhood. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6720 "2013-08-13T22:41:36Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Umm… no. He says it’s not available to **everyone** , not anyone. So some people can have it. [The exact quote:](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13861815#post13861815) _And more to the point, True Resurrection is a terrible, narrative-wrecking spell that should not exist, as it has no real purpose for players who die in battle (as they can almost always be returned via simple Resurrection) and only ever comes in to play to undo plot points. I prefer to simply treat it as “not available” to everyone, and I don’t want to waste any panel time explaining why._ The key phrase is \* not available to everyone\* I parse that as meaning that everyone finds it not available. YMMV ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2013, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6721 "2013-08-13T23:25:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > In 3.0, you could still come back as animals (or maybe fey). In 3.5, though, it’s all humanoids (with a footnote that the DM should work up a new table for nonhumanoid subjects). > > Which is a shame, because the randomness of the old version was potentially a lot of fun. I recall in AD&D if you were reincarnated on other planes you could even come back as one of the local creatures; an elemental or whatever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=335) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=337)