# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 34
**Author:** ![choie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/choie/32/7829_2.png) [@choie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/choie)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/661 "2010-04-11T05:00:08Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Where have Elan and V been, that Haley wasn’t around? They might not be after V. I think they want Haley, and that the lizard only wanted V for the teleport spell. I know Blackwing seems to assume they want V, and the lizard says “we don’t need _her_” which we’d all assume meant Haley… but isn’t there a fifty percent chance he meant Vaarsuvius? Just seems more likely that someone, in particular the Linear Guild or possibly even Elan’s father, would want Elan/Haley as a team, rather than Elan/Vaarsuvius. But I could be (and probably am) wrong. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/662 "2010-04-11T12:13:01Z")
> [@choie](#): > > I know Blackwing seems to assume they want V, and the lizard says “we don’t need _her_” which we’d all assume meant Haley… but isn’t there a fifty percent chance he meant Vaarsuvius? The lizard calls Vaarsuvius “it” (“For the record, you’ll also be safe if it tells you to sit on your brain.”), so “her” would seem to refere to Haley. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/663 "2010-04-11T15:02:42Z")
It doesn’t look like they’re even taking Haley, but are about to teleport with just Elan. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/664 "2010-04-11T15:19:55Z")
Am I the only one to think the whole “you don’t have hands !” break off from Suggestion is a bit… cheaty ? I mean, I know Suggestion is a pretty weak spell and all, but I don’t care if you’ve got nails or razor sharp dragon claws : if it’s got an opposable thumb, it’s a hand. And if it doesn’t, how the hell is that guy holding his morningstar, hmm ? Yes, yes, Rule of Funny, I know. Still, the anal-retentive rules lawyer in me gets restless. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/665 "2010-04-11T15:53:14Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > It doesn’t look like they’re even taking Haley, but are about to teleport with just Elan. No, the little guy says “Grab them both.” ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/666 "2010-04-11T16:06:28Z")
> [@choie](#): > > They might not be after V. I think they want Haley, and that the lizard only wanted V for the teleport spell. I could certainly be wrong, but I think they already had the Teleport scroll with them. It looks like the attack was meant to grab Elan and V, nobody else. I think they’ll end up regretting leaving Haley and Blackwing behind – Haley is intelligent and resourceful and will have noticed any significant details about their attackers. Would Blackwing have an affinity for V’s location that the OotS could exploit to find them? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2010, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/667 "2010-04-11T17:01:58Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Would Blackwing have an affinity for V’s location that the OotS could exploit to find them? Only to a range of one mile, and even then it’s not good for much. If it was the other way around it would work better, since V could scry on Blackwing. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/668 "2010-04-12T13:16:57Z")
> [@choie](#): > > They might not be after V. I think they want Haley, and that the lizard only wanted V for the teleport spell. > > I know Blackwing seems to assume they want V, and the lizard says “we don’t need _her_” which we’d all assume meant Haley… but isn’t there a fifty percent chance he meant Vaarsuvius? Just seems more likely that someone, in particular the Linear Guild or possibly even Elan’s father, would want Elan/Haley as a team, rather than Elan/Vaarsuvius. > > But I could be (and probably am) wrong. I thought the same thing, but Burlew wouldn’t give Vaarsuvius’ gender away that easily. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/669 "2010-04-12T13:44:37Z")
Various NPCs have always referred to V as “him” or “her” pretty much at random. Don’t read too much into it. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/670 "2010-04-12T14:16:11Z")
And Blackwing seems to think they’re taking V, with the statment, “Before you take my wizard away. . .” ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/671 "2010-04-12T17:40:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Various NPCs have always referred to V as “him” or “her” pretty much at random. Don’t read too much into it. Even Sabine, the strip’s foremost expert on the topic of humanoid sexuality, has referred to V as both male and female. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/672 "2010-04-12T18:09:43Z")
That’s because Sabine doesn’t care either way… ---
**Author:** ![TheFaerie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TheFaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFaerie)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/673 "2010-04-12T19:41:48Z")
If my memory is correct, I believe that in Dragon Magazine waaaay back in the day there was an article about elves, and it stated that the gender of elves could be male, female, both or neither. Since V has kids, we can presume the ‘neither’ gender wouldn’t apply, so maybe V is both? ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/674 "2010-04-12T19:48:30Z")
V’s kids are adopted. ---
**Author:** ![TheFaerie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TheFaerie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheFaerie)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/675 "2010-04-12T19:53:04Z")
Really? Then I vote for neither gender. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/676 "2010-04-12T20:31:17Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > That’s because Sabine doesn’t care either way… Which reminds me of a question I’ve had tickling the back of my brain for a while: it seems to be a plot point that we don’t know whether Sabine is a demon or a devil. Haley has hurt her with two arrows at a time, one tipped with cold iron and one tipped with silver. What does it matter exactly what kind of evil creature Sabine is? Does it make any difference? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/677 "2010-04-12T20:54:07Z")
That one’s been resolved, actually: One of the Directors of the IFCC (who would certainly know) referred to her as a succubus, which is a type of demon. The distinction is at least as important as whether Vaarsuvius is male or female, since (by the book, at least) demons are always chaotic evil, and devils are always lawful evil. The argument can be made, though, that Sabine’s alignment is not according to the rules, and that she’s actually a lawful demon. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/678 "2010-04-12T20:55:04Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > Which reminds me of a question I’ve had tickling the back of my brain for a while: it seems to be a plot point that we don’t know whether Sabine is a demon or a devil. Haley has hurt her with two arrows at a time, one tipped with cold iron and one tipped with silver. What does it matter exactly what kind of evil creature Sabine is? Does it make any difference? I can’t bring up an accurate memory of exactly what Sabine looks like, so help me out. Are her wings batwings or feather wings? If batwings, she’s a succubus (demon/tanar’ri). If feather wings, she’s an erinyes (devil/baatezu). ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/679 "2010-04-12T21:07:40Z")
They’re batwings, so that fits. Huh. Would Chaotic vs. Lawful Evil make any particular difference in her behavior? I’m just confused as to why Rich Burlew would draw attention to a question mark about her nature if it isn’t going to affect the story in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/680 "2010-04-12T21:15:18Z")
She’s a shapeshifter, though. The bat wings might not be natural. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=33) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=35)