# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 350
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6982 "2013-08-27T15:53:59Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > That’s my thought. Durkon has extenuating circumstances on his side but Sabine is just an evil netherworld critter. Also, Hayley hates her – enough that Sabine supplanted Crystal in the Nemesis department. I think Hayley’s the only one who would object. Belkar would _love_ to have a succubus in the party. Durkon’s unlikely to have any objections in his current state. If the rest of the party hasn’t learned that V is basically Hitler to black dragons, Sabine could use that information as blackmail. If they have learned about it, V has no moral ground to object to her while s/he’s still a member. Roy’s got a demonstrated practicality when it comes to working with evil people. And Élan’s still all tied up in thinking of Nale (and by extension, Sabine: she was a bridesmaid in his wedding fantasy) as family. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6983 "2013-08-27T16:06:25Z")
It’s going to be interesting when V shows up and there’s a high-level psion around. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6984 "2013-08-27T16:34:47Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Last nail (Nale) in the coffin. > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > A pun on the phrase “last nail in the coffin” > > Edit - Ninja’d :smack: I am very stupid, and you are both very clever. Many thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6985 "2013-08-27T16:44:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I think Hayley’s the only one who would object. Belkar would _love_ to have a succubus in the party. Durkon’s unlikely to have any objections in his current state. If the rest of the party hasn’t learned that V is basically Hitler to black dragons, Sabine could use that information as blackmail. If they have learned about it, V has no moral ground to object to her while s/he’s still a member. Roy’s got a demonstrated practicality when it comes to working with evil people. And Élan’s still all tied up in thinking of Nale (and by extension, Sabine: she was a bridesmaid in his wedding fantasy) as family. To the contrary, I’d say Elan would side with Hayley, V knows that Sabine is an agent of the Directors (who want the Gate/Snarl for their own evil purposes counter to the Order’s goals), Durkon had no warmth for Nale & Z and is unlikely to greet Sabine with hugs and love and Roy’s goal is Xykon & the last Gate, not revenge quests against Tarquin. I’m not even convinced that Belkar would want her around. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6986 "2013-08-27T16:54:48Z")
Belkar would probably want her around, but Sabine wouldn’t want Belkar to want her around. Even succubi have standards. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6987 "2013-08-27T17:00:39Z")
Another Resurrection-related question: the description of the Resurrection spell mentions that the disintegrated remains count as “a piece of the person’s body” for purposes of resurrection. How **much** of the post-disintegration pile of dust do you need in order to Resurrect the victim? Would you need all of it, or would a single grain of dust suffice? ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6988 "2013-08-27T17:01:33Z")
When I mention Belkar, I’m sure he’s all for the T&A aspects. I’m thinking more of the “off my bad guy turf” or “WTF we’re the ‘good guys’ and we’re stocking the party with vampires and demons and I still can’t indiscriminately stab people?” aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6989 "2013-08-27T17:09:41Z")
Interesting. Should Sabine join the Order, effectively 50% of the Order of the Stick will be evil-aligned\*. Interesting turn to the story. I wonder if that was Rich’s plan from the beginning. \*Not counting V, who I believe is True Neutral, when s/he’s not a mass-murdering psychopath. ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6990 "2013-08-27T17:13:48Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > When I mention Belkar, I’m sure he’s all for the T&A aspects. I’m thinking more of the “off my bad guy turf” or “WTF we’re the ‘good guys’ and we’re stocking the party with vampires and demons and I still can’t indiscriminately stab people?” aspects. Spot on. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6991 "2013-08-27T17:14:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Belkar would probably want her around, but Sabine wouldn’t want Belkar to want her around. Even succubi have standards. Are you kidding? [Ladies love the sexy, shoeless god of war!](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0611.html) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6992 "2013-08-27T17:21:53Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Elan isn’t dumb enough to try something with Tarquin surrounded by soldiers, dinosaurs and a psion for protection. You have to concede that basing an argument around the phrase “Elan isn’t dumb enough” has its weak spot. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6993 "2013-08-27T17:26:13Z")
Incidentally, if the question is, “Will Sabine ally with the Order at some point?” I think the answer is definitely yes. If the question is, “Will Sabine become a member of the Order?” then I’m pretty sure it’s no. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6994 "2013-08-27T17:58:26Z")
I never thought Belkar was dumb. Shagging a succubi without negative energy protection is dumb… so… are ypou sure Belkar would love to have a succubi around? ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6995 "2013-08-27T18:03:03Z")
If Nale is going anywhere, as said upthread, it’ll be either Carceri, the Abyss, or Pandemonium. Any chance he’s cunning enough to not only survive, but thrive in any of those planes? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6996 "2013-08-27T18:43:59Z")
> [@mlees](#): > > I never thought Belkar was dumb. Shagging a succubi without negative energy protection is dumb… so… are ypou sure Belkar would love to have a succubi around? Oh, yeah, absolutely. Belkar is all about satisfying immediate needs without regard to long term consequences. And it was established pretty early on that that was a result of [his abyssmal Wisdom score,](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html) so yeah, he’s just the right kind of stupid to try and hit that. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6997 "2013-08-27T19:02:14Z")
Which reminds me, back in my day energy (level) drain attacks were a big deal since they represented losing a lot of time and effort. Games I was in used them sparingly or made sure that the appropriate restoration magics would be available if only to prevent rage among the players. I’ve noticed that the OotS gets hit by them on a pretty regular basis and with very little concern. Is the assumption that Durkon is just pumping out the _Restorations_ or is level drain now temporary or what? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6998 "2013-08-27T19:07:02Z")
In 3.5 level drains cause temporary level loss. After 24 hours you make a Fortitude save. If you make it, the level drain goes away, otherwise it becomes permanent. So even without _Restoration_, it’s not always permanent. I expect Durkon has been using a lot of \*Restorations \*however. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/6999 "2013-08-27T19:13:46Z")
It’s sort of temporary. When you get hit by an energy-draining attack, you don’t lose a level immediately. Rather, you get what’s called a negative level. While you have negative levels, you get a variety of penalties, and if you ever have as many negative levels as you do actual levels, you die immediately and come back as some sort of undead, but it’s still just another status condition. They’re also not so hard, at this point, to get rid of. 24 hours after you got the negative level, if you still have it, you lose the negative level… but you also have to make a fortitude save, and if you fail that, then you do permanently lose an actual character level (there are spells to get this back, too, but it’s harder). I believe that the primary purpose for doing it this way was so players don’t have to go through and recalculate all of their abilities in the middle of a battle, but it also provides a chance to be (eventually) just fine with no magical intervention at all. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7000 "2013-08-27T20:03:05Z")
> [@shantih](#): > > But I think Nale has truly been seen for the last time, unless we catch a glimpse of him in hell with Sabine at some point. Like Miko, his arc is complete and his purpose in the story has been fulfilled. I’m pretty sure we’ll see Nale again and if we don’t it’s a story flaw. We know Sabine loves Nale: if we don’t learn of her efforts to locate him and an eventual reunion (however brief), it will represent a dangling plot thread. There’s a real barrier to their love: I can’t imagine that Nale is lawful, so a little plane jumping will be necessary. There’s also a parallel to explore. Elan is wise enough to outsource his intelligence to Roy and Haley. Is Nale smart enough to outsource his wisdom to Sabine? (Nale might have better alternatives in CE-land, ones that don’t require access to level protection spells, but again this is something the reader wants resolved in some way.) The Miyazaki story, OTOH, is all tied up. Anyway, setting Chekov’s dagger aside, Nale could return to Oots-land as a demon or whatever. I’m guessing that wouldn’t work dramatically, but Burlew often surprises me. ETA: I continue to be gobsmacked by the Giant’s efficient storytelling. A lot of characterization gets packed into a small number of panels. The first 5 panels of 914 are as good an example as any. Also the facial depictions on Tarquin as he does the unthinkable are revealing. I think he loved Nale in his own way: it’s just that such sentiments weren’t especially strong. He wasn’t happy to kill Nale, just resigned to its necessity as he conceived it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7001 "2013-08-27T20:05:00Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > With his high score in Genre-Savvy, Tarquin couldn’t possibly be willing to leave the issue of a Nale-Resurrection to chance, could he? I’m going to look for him obliterating the corpse. > > Would a psion have the resources to do something of that nature? 'Cos I think Laurin would just LOVE to oblige. > > The question of how Sabine is going to take it remains, however… Both questions asked and answered, I guess. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=349) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=351)