# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 351
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7002 "2013-08-27T20:26:45Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > There’s a real barrier to their love: I can’t imagine that Nale is lawful, so a little plane jumping will be necessary. Succubi are Chaotic Evil, so they should end up in the same corner of the [Great Psychedelic Diagram](http://www.neogrognard.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/FirstPlanarfMap.jpg) naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7003 "2013-08-27T20:53:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Succubi are Chaotic Evil, so they should end up in the same corner of the [Great Psychedelic Diagram](http://www.neogrognard.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/FirstPlanarfMap.jpg) naturally. Didn’t an earlier strip have Sabine mention that she’s lawful? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7004 "2013-08-27T21:10:06Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I can’t imagine that Nale is lawful, so a little plane jumping will be necessary. [Come on, son.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0057.html) **Nale:** Of course, I’m **Lawful** Evil, so I see no reason not to honor my contract with Xykon and kill you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7005 "2013-08-27T21:31:02Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > I’m pretty sure we’ll see Nale again and if we don’t it’s a story flaw. We know Sabine loves Nale: if we don’t learn of her efforts to locate him and an eventual reunion (however brief), it will represent a dangling plot thread. Well, those efforts could be disposed of with a single panel of exposition, more or less the same way they dealt with trying to bring back Lord Shojo. “I tried to find Nale, but I couldn’t because X,” and on with the action, without ever showing the jerk in-panel again. > [@](#): > > Anyway, setting Chekov’s dagger aside, Nale could return to Oots-land as a demon or whatever. I think that’s one of the least likely scenarios, as it would be a pretty big departure from vanilla D&D. While the game has come up with a lot of different approaches to dealing with souls in the afterlife, it’s generally been pretty consistent in demons not just being a dead person with horns stuck on. Even when they’re presented as being made from the souls of dead mortals, it always involves a process that strips away virtually all memories of their mortal lives, either because it takes millennia to complete, or is horrifically torturous, or (most commonly) both at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7006 "2013-08-27T21:32:16Z")
Thinking that Sabine is chaotic, and Rich is an unpredictable storyteller, hell all there is no way I can predict what chaos will ensue when she confronts Daddy Tarq. I do love his Imperial posture of his hands behind his back when he’s addressing his inferiors. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7007 "2013-08-27T21:38:26Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > **Nale:** Of course, I’m **Lawful** Evil, so I see no reason not to honor my contract with Xykon and kill you. That’s what he says he is - but his actions say otherwise, and Burlew’s response to people pointing that out have been suspiciously non-specific; “isn’t that interesting” or something like that IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7008 "2013-08-27T21:51:01Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s what he says he is - but his actions say otherwise Indeed, but that was many hundreds of strips ago, and he may well have been LE at that point. Who’s to say that Sabine didn’t influence him towards CE? ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2013, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7009 "2013-08-27T23:37:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s what he says he is - but his actions say otherwise, and Burlew’s response to people pointing that out have been suspiciously non-specific; “isn’t that interesting” or something like that IIRC. I’m not familiar with how people play Chaotic Evil vs. Lawful Evil characters, since I’ve never actually been able to play D&D. What kinds of things did he do that indicate he wasn’t really Lawful? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7010 "2013-08-28T02:46:45Z")
[quote=“Gray\_Ghost, post:6946, topic:508323”] [li]1) take a piece of Nale’s body and get somebody to cast ordinary Resurrection. The problem with that is there isn’t any piece left, other than _maybe_ some blood on Tarq’s dagger.[/li][li]2) get someone to cast True Resurrection or some Wish/Miracle combo. Problem with that is the author’s on record saying that he hates the spell. Despite having [characters in strip discuss its availability and who can cast it.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) And the wanted poster with the 25,000 GP difference between Nale alive and Nale dead. One interesting bit of speculation at the OOTS forums is for Sabine to try and team up with the only known 17th level cleric in Stickworld, RedCloak.[/li][li]3) get the Directors to make Nale some form of free-willed outsider. Why would they?[/li][/LIST] I don’t think we’re giving possibility #2 enough credit. The passing mention of Redcloak back in strip 579 is _exactly_ the kind of foreshadowing that Burlew is fond of, and Sabine making a temporary alliance with someone whose interests are quasi-opposed to her employers’ is _exactly_ the kind of plot development that Burlew is fond of. I would never have thought of it myself, but I will actually be kind of surprised if a Sabine/Redcloak plot doesn’t show up in the next book. In terms of story arc, however, I do think Elan is going to have to in some way overcome his father (whether physically or morally) before Tarquin dies. It will be interesting to see how that happens. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7011 "2013-08-28T03:08:19Z")
Sorry, hash tags got screwed up. That should read: > [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > [li]1) take a piece of Nale’s body and get somebody to cast ordinary Resurrection. The problem with that is there isn’t any piece left, other than _maybe_ some blood on Tarq’s dagger.[/li][li]2) get someone to cast True Resurrection or some Wish/Miracle combo. Problem with that is the author’s on record saying that he hates the spell. Despite having [characters in strip discuss its availability and who can cast it.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0579.html) And the wanted poster with the 25,000 GP difference between Nale alive and Nale dead. One interesting bit of speculation at the OOTS forums is for Sabine to try and team up with the only known 17th level cleric in Stickworld, RedCloak.[/li][li]3) get the Directors to make Nale some form of free-willed outsider. Why would they?[/li] I don’t think we’re giving possibility #2 enough credit. The passing mention of Redcloak back in strip 579 is _exactly_ the kind of foreshadowing that Burlew is fond of, and Sabine making a temporary alliance with someone whose interests are quasi-opposed to her employers’ is _exactly_ the kind of plot development that Burlew is fond of. I would never have thought of it myself, but I will actually be kind of surprised if a Sabine/Redcloak plot doesn’t show up in the next book. In terms of story arc, however, I do think Elan is going to have to in some way overcome his father (whether physically or morally) before Tarquin dies. It will be interesting to see how that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7012 "2013-08-28T04:12:20Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > …The passing mention of Redcloak back in strip 579 is _exactly_ the kind of foreshadowing that Burlew is fond of, and Sabine making a temporary alliance with someone whose interests are quasi-opposed to her employers’ is _exactly_ the kind of plot development that Burlew is fond of. **I would never have thought of it myself** , but I will actually be kind of surprised if a Sabine/Redcloak plot doesn’t show up in the next book… [Emphasis added] Me neither. The [OOTS forums](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22) are great for this sort of thing. They get bogged down in moralistic B.S. a lot, but if you can sift through that, there’s an awful lot of creative people there, analyzing and deconstructing Burlew’s work. (and helpfully correcting my 3.5 interpretation errors.) I just can’t see why she’d go to the Order when the power that she needs is elsewhere. Durkula can’t do squat w/o the dagger, but RedCloak can. I’m really interested in seeing Burlew’s take on the Evil afterlives. Especially since it doesn’t look like we’re going to get any crises of faith from Durkula. I just can’t see how Burlew can fit it into this book. Which already will be larger than any of the others this far. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7013 "2013-08-28T04:26:33Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > I’m not familiar with how people play Chaotic Evil vs. Lawful Evil characters, since I’ve never actually been able to play D&D. What kinds of things did he do that indicate he wasn’t really Lawful? The most glaring example that comes to mind is his rejection of all authority, culminating in the speech that got him killed. _“I am my own man, not some cog in your latest oh-so-clever scheme!”_ That sounds Chaotic to me. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7014 "2013-08-28T04:30:13Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > [Emphasis added] > > Me neither. The [OOTS forums](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=22) are great for this sort of thing. They get bogged down in moralistic B.S. a lot … Actually, no. Discussions about whether such and such is morally justified are forbidden, and closed down as soon as they start. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7015 "2013-08-28T04:36:53Z")
> [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > Actually, no. Discussions about whether such and such is morally justified are forbidden, and closed down as soon as they start. You’d think so. And the TOS do say so. But every other friggin’ discussion gets into “So and so is this alignment, and here’s what the character did and why it’s so horrible.” Or, “Here’s why [this character] isn’t motivated by how everyone else thinks.” _Ad infinitum_. It’s just not that interesting to me, some poster’s ruminations on why so and so is horrible. Or not. That’s what I meant by moralistic. But you’re right that any topic tying in-comic events too close to Real Life, gets smacked fairly quickly with the banhammer. I don’t remember, but did anyone crack Burlew for echoing the Holocaust with Malack’s whole, “I will sacrifice 1000 people a day to Nergal, in chambers specially built for the purpose.” I did not find his, “but it was supposed to be a statement on factory farming…” all that convincing. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7016 "2013-08-28T04:42:31Z")
Can a character think they’re one alignment and be another? (I’m definitely not thinking of Belkar, who I can’t see being all that interested in this; Belkar’s alignment is “Belkar”, whatever that means on any day. And, yes, it’s obviously changing, in ways we don’t understand. But I was thinking of characters in general.) ---
**Author:** ![Mr\_Shine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr_shine/32/464_2.png) [@Mr\_Shine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr_Shine)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7017 "2013-08-28T06:37:11Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Can a character think they’re one alignment and be another? > > (I’m definitely not thinking of Belkar, who I can’t see being all that interested in this; Belkar’s alignment is “Belkar”, whatever that means on any day. And, yes, it’s obviously changing, in ways we don’t understand. But I was thinking of characters in general.) Roy definitely had no doubt that he was LG. However the Deva let him know he was _this close_ to being NG. If someone as rational as Roy can almost make a mistake, someone with the lack of self-awareness that Nale has could probably be on the opposite end of the L/C spectrum to what he thinks. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7018 "2013-08-28T06:38:21Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Can a character think they’re one alignment and be another? Seems like it; it [almost happened to Roy](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0488.html): > [@](#): > > I’ll tell you, if you hadn’t gone back, then whether he lived **or** died, I would be chucking your file into the True Neutral bin right now. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7019 "2013-08-28T07:42:39Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > Roy definitely had no doubt that he was LG. However the Deva let him know he was _this close_ to being NG. If someone as rational as Roy can almost make a mistake, someone with the lack of self-awareness that Nale has could probably be on the opposite end of the L/C spectrum to what he thinks. Miko is probably the ur-example of this in the strip. Right up until the end, she was absolutely convinced that her actions were in accordance with a lawful good alignment. Even direct intervention by the Gods themselves didn’t get through to her. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7020 "2013-08-28T11:35:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > The most glaring example that comes to mind is his rejection of all authority, culminating in the speech that got him killed. _“I am my own man, not some cog in your latest oh-so-clever scheme!”_ That sounds Chaotic to me. It’s not. Being Lawful only requires that you follow _a_ authority. You don’t need to follow _every_ authority. Someone with a meticulous plan to take over the world, who has the self-control to follow that plan, is Lawful, even if that plan requires violating other people’s laws. Good is the only alignment that has any inherent obligation to work together. Lawful characters can be cogs in different machines, Evil characters can tear each other down to raise themselves up, and Chaotic characters do as they please. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2013, 12:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7021 "2013-08-28T12:35:33Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > It’s not. Being Lawful only requires that you follow _a_ authority. And in Nale’s case that would be? And rejecting an authority when doing so is suicidal doesn’t strike me as LE at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=350) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=352)