# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 355
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7082 "2013-08-31T20:34:17Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > . Judging from the way Redcloak told Xykon about Tsukiko’s death, it appears very likely Xykon can tell when people are telling him the truth. I took Redcloak telling Xykon about Tsukiko’s death to be a distraction to prevent him spotting the substitution of the phylactery. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7083 "2013-08-31T20:37:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > No, these things aren’t true. There was no secret being kept here - Redcloak went to Xykon and told him he had attacked the Resistance headquarters and recovered the amulet. Having a witness who could verify his story would have been useful because Xykon is naturally suspicious. > > And while Redcloak hates humans, he does value goblin lives. He’s willing to sacrifice them for what he sees as the greater good but not without a good reason. My feeling is that the spy told the resistance where the Hobbo party was that had the amulet. Then the resistance was able to seize the amulet and fall into redcloaks trap. This allowed Redcloak to switch the amulets. If the Hobbos had gone directly to Xykon, Redcloack would have missed his opportunity. Redcloack needed the witness to this scheme dead. When I first read those strips I thought the back and forth narrative was kind of pointless, but now it looks like a clever plan and good writing on Rich’s part. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7084 "2013-08-31T21:16:40Z")
He also wants to avoid having to answer the question of why he didn’t squash the Resistance earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7085 "2013-08-31T22:13:13Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I took Redcloak telling Xykon about Tsukiko’s death to be a distraction to prevent him spotting the substitution of the phylactery. But notice how everything he says to Xykon is technically true while the overall impression created by what he said was fault. I take this to mean that Redcloak knows he can’t tell Xykon an outright lie - he has to tell Xykon the truth but a carefully manipulated truth. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7086 "2013-08-31T22:17:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > He also wants to avoid having to answer the question of why he didn’t squash the Resistance earlier. He had an explanation for that. He was supposed to be recovering the amulet while Tsukiko was supposed to be eliminating the Resistance. So squashing the Resistance wasn’t his job until they had the amulet. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2013, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7087 "2013-08-31T22:23:19Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > My feeling is that the spy told the resistance where the Hobbo party was that had the amulet. Then the resistance was able to seize the amulet and fall into redcloaks trap. This allowed Redcloak to switch the amulets. If the Hobbos had gone directly to Xykon, Redcloack would have missed his opportunity. Redcloack needed the witness to this scheme dead. > > When I first read those strips I thought the back and forth narrative was kind of pointless, but now it looks like a clever plan and good writing on Rich’s part. This is a possibility. You are right that if the Resistance hadn’t known about the amulet’s recovery, the goblins who found it would have taken it directly to Xykon. So Redcloak would have wanted the Resistance to attack and capture the amulet to give him a chance to make the substitution. The Resistance leaders [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html) they got the information from one of their own spies but it’s possible Redcloak had caught their spy and was feeding them false information through his own spy. And that would be something Redcloak needed to conceal. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7088 "2013-09-01T01:39:09Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > This is a possibility. You are right that if the Resistance hadn’t known about the amulet’s recovery, the goblins who found it would have taken it directly to Xykon. So Redcloak would have wanted the Resistance to attack and capture the amulet to give him a chance to make the substitution. The Resistance leaders [said](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0825.html) they got the information from one of their own spies but it’s possible Redcloak had caught their spy and was feeding them false information through his own spy. And that would be something Redcloak needed to conceal. Yes, I think you guys are on the right track here. He wanted to avoid having a hobgoblin who could say “Man, Lord Xykon, I was having to live with those stinky humans for WEEKS! I’m glad we finally got to kill them and get your amulet back.” and get Xykon wondering why Redcloak didn’t move in earlier if he already knew for weeks where Resistance HQ was. And of course the reason was that he wanted them to take brief possession of the phylactery so he could have a chance to swap out the phylactery in secret; if he WASN’T planning treachery against Xykon, there would be no reason to have left the Resistance alone for so long. Hence, the existence of his polymorphed spy had to remain a secret. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7089 "2013-09-01T04:00:52Z")
It’s probably not addressed in the monster manual (of which I don’t have one anyway), but is it plausible\* at all that Xykon would be able to sense somehow that the phylactery is a ringer? If so, he might already know that Redcloak is keeping something from him, and is strategically holding back on acting on that knowledge until Redcloak’s actual plan becomes more clear. \*Plausible, that is, wrt lich capabilities, not wrt Xykon’s innate ability to play a long game of his own. ETA: I just wanted to pop in and say that the Death of Tsukiko was one of the most chilling strips I have encountered. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7090 "2013-09-01T04:52:34Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s probably not addressed in the monster manual (of which I don’t have one anyway), but is it plausible\* at all that Xykon would be able to sense somehow that the phylactery is a ringer? > > If so, he might already know that Redcloak is keeping something from him, and is strategically holding back on acting on that knowledge until Redcloak’s actual plan becomes more clear. I’d consider that unlikely. The phylactery is too important to Xykon for him to knowingly leave Azure City without it. If he spotted that Redcloak was trying to give him a fake, he’d have either figured Redcloak was keeping the original or he was trying to pass off a fake in order to cover up his inability to find the real one. Either way, Xykon’s likeliest reaction would be to kill a few thousand goblins to get Redcloak’s attention and then threaten to kill all the rest if he didn’t produce the real amulet. So while I think Xykon suspects Redcloak of some kind of deceit, I don’t think he suspects this particular one. A more likely explanation is that Xykon thinks Redcloak figured out his own betrayal plan - to have Tsukiko replace Redcloak in the ritual - and he killed Tsukiko to prevent this. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7091 "2013-09-01T08:52:27Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > It’s probably not addressed in the monster manual (of which I don’t have one anyway), but is it plausible\* at all that Xykon would be able to sense somehow that the phylactery is a ringer? I’m not sure, but I think there was an episode where Xykon stated that he’d put a lot of enchantments on the phylactery to prevent its detection. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7092 "2013-09-01T08:55:10Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > **Nale:** Of course, I’m **Lawful** Evil, so I see no reason not to honor my contract with Xykon and kill you. Have we missed a joke hundreds of strips old? NALE = Not Actually Lawful Evil? ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7093 "2013-09-01T11:58:02Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not sure, but I think there was an episode where Xykon stated that he’d put a lot of enchantments on the phylactery to prevent its detection. Yep, that’s why the army had to search for it manually. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7094 "2013-09-01T13:25:20Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m not sure, but I think there was an episode where Xykon stated that he’d put a lot of enchantments on the phylactery to prevent its detection. [Here’s](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0661.html) the strip. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7095 "2013-09-01T16:55:15Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > ETA: I just wanted to pop in and say that the Death of Tsukiko was one of the most chilling strips I have encountered. Boy, that’s for sure. All the more so because she never really grasped what kind of people she had fallen in with. “I’ll tell Xykon and he’ll fire you and make me his number two.” Right … ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7096 "2013-09-01T17:34:11Z")
And she should have. The signs were right there at the time of her hire. Redcloak almost gets her killed with the chlorine elemental and when she complains Xykon tells her to suck it up. Actually, both Miko and Tsukiko are avatars of different kinds of naivete. Both come at it from different points of view, but the defining characteristic of both is to not be able to see the world for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7097 "2013-09-01T20:46:26Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Boy, that’s for sure. All the more so because she never really grasped what kind of people she had fallen in with. Yeah, I recall a comment I heard about her at the time; that she was basically the equivalent of a Mean Girl from high school who somehow fell in with Colombian drug lords and still thought she was scary. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2013, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7098 "2013-09-01T21:01:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, I recall a comment I heard about her at the time; that she was basically the equivalent of a Mean Girl from high school who somehow fell in with Colombian drug lords and still thought she was scary. On one level, yeah. On another level, though, she was [significantly further 'round the bend than the other villains.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7099 "2013-09-02T09:44:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > On one level, yeah. On another level, though, she was [significantly further 'round the bend than the other villains.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0446.html) How so? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7100 "2013-09-02T14:31:42Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > How so? She’s a necrophiliac. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2013, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7101 "2013-09-02T14:32:01Z")
She really _loves_ the undead. EDIT: Dang you, 60-second reply timer! That reply was _mine_! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=354) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=356)