# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 359
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7162 "2013-09-03T16:17:26Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Not sure V’s going to be able to do much against an army (and a high-level psion) A high level evoker against a large number of conveniently clustered mooks? This is the sort of situation V was basically designed to deal with. The Psion is a bit of a wild card, though. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7163 "2013-09-03T16:18:58Z")
Good thing its an illusory army. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7164 "2013-09-03T16:19:20Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > According to the [d20srd.org](http://d20srd.org) [page on vampires](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), clerics who become vampires have access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery. Anything useful he could do with those? Destruction gives him access to disintegrate. However, he needs to prepare his spells ahead of time, and I don’t think he’s had a chance to do that since he was killed, so he probably can’t use any of those domains just yet. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7165 "2013-09-03T16:26:44Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > From the art, it looks like Belkar is still at very low HP from Durkon munching on him earlier. I don’t see how he possibly comes out of this alive. There’s a spell in Malack’s staff that would allow Durkon to vamp him as a thrall (presuming he would be able to access it)… ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7166 "2013-09-03T16:33:36Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Destruction gives him access to disintegrate. However, he needs to prepare his spells ahead of time, and I don’t think he’s had a chance to do that since he was killed, so he probably can’t use any of those domains just yet. Sure, we’ve all seen Redcloak use Disintegrate frequently thanks to his Destruction domain (and Earthquake and Implosion, too!), but what I meant was, would any of those four domains give him anything useful for defeating an entire army and its dinosaurs? Disintegrate is nice, but he could only kill one person at a time with it, right? Also, if he hasn’t had a chance to prepare spells, how did he manage to summon that devil? I assumed he must have risen as a new vampire with fresh spells prepared, like how the Soul Splice refreshed Vaarsuvius’s spells. Would that not be the case? (I suppose it would depend on the details of how Malack’s [obscure spell to hasten the process of rising as a vampire](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0878.html) works?) ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7167 "2013-09-03T16:39:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > There’s a spell in Malack’s staff that would allow Durkon to vamp him as a thrall (presuming he would be able to access it)… Doesn’t he need to actually be the one to kill him, using his blood drain, for that to work? (Assuming the spell really does just “hasten the process,” that is.) Or can a normal vampire take any fresh corpse and make it rise as a vampire 1d4 days post-burial? It sounds like that isn’t the case, from the SRD’s description… ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7168 "2013-09-03T16:39:47Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Also, if he hasn’t had a chance to prepare spells, how did he manage to summon that devil? He already had a summoning spell memorized to summon a deva to guard the Gate (the original plan against Xykon). He just asked a different place for help when he cast it and summoned the devil. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7169 "2013-09-03T16:47:48Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Doesn’t he need to actually be the one to kill him, using his blood drain, for that to work? (Assuming the spell really does just “hasten the process,” that is.) Or can a normal vampire take any fresh corpse and make it rise as a vampire 1d4 days post-burial? It sounds like that isn’t the case, from the SRD’s description… I figure he could probably make time to administer the _[del]coup[/del] mordre de grace_ as well. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7170 "2013-09-03T17:08:21Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > I don’t get it. Tarquin knows Elan is no fighter. He’s a Bard with a prestige class. Bards are support and backup. That’s what they do. What’s Tarquin up to here? > [@kaylasdad99](#): > > I’d find it a bit more easy to accept Haley and/or Elan successfully persuading Tarquin to call off the attack, largely by encouraging him to use his Genre Savvy and consider the points **Larry Borgia** raises above. Elan: “Dad. I hate to break this to you, but I’m as stupid as Nale was unwise. Luckily I’m wise enough to recognize that and secure myself solid allies. The only way the stupid guy can be leader is in a zany comedy (or worse a _romantic_ comedy), and do you really want to be that kind of villain? Because that’s where this narrative is heading.” Except Elan can’t articulate it in that way. But maybe he could with Haley’s help. Elan does grasp his place in the world, unlike Tarquin who thinks that he is the main villain. ## Funny thing is, being a recurring villain can be way better than being the main one. Things won’t end well for Xykon, but Tarquin could conceivably die of old age. Sadly, Tarquin that old bastard probably understands some of this. He sees the obvious exit in the canyon and knows that if Roy is truly the hero, then he will survive. So the attack is a genre test of sorts. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7171 "2013-09-03T17:12:51Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Sadly, Tarquin that old bastard probably understands some of this. He sees the obvious exit in the canyon and knows that if Roy is truly the hero, then he will survive. So the attack is a genre test of sorts. He should check out [this strip](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html), then! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7172 "2013-09-03T17:13:50Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > According to the [d20srd.org](http://d20srd.org) [page on vampires](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), clerics who become vampires have access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery. Anything useful he could do with those? I’m assuming that Durkon’s got 7th level spells max. If he’s got the Trickery domain, he could use [Screen](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/screen.htm). But he’s quite likely to still have the Air domain in which case he can cast [Wind Wall](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm). Though he may have it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7173 "2013-09-03T17:19:26Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > So while I think Xykon suspects Redcloak of some kind of deceit, I don’t think he suspects this particular one. A more likely explanation is that Xykon thinks Redcloak figured out his own betrayal plan - to have Tsukiko replace Redcloak in the ritual - and he killed Tsukiko to prevent this. [Redcloak mentioned to Xykon](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) that Tsukiko had a copy of the arcane half of the ritual, and asked Xykon if he knew anything about that. Note that Xykon hesitates a moment before answering “No”. That doesn’t fit the idea of Redcloak discovering/suspecting that Xykon planned to have Tsukiko take his place in the casting (Xykon would need the divine half for that, which he [doesn’t have and can’t obtain](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html)), but it does lead Xykon to suspect that Tsukiko might have planned a coup (particularly embarrassing given that he’d apparently given Tsukiko access to the arcane half because he was too lazy to do his own homework). That served as a sufficient distraction from any questions about Redcloak’s plans. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7174 "2013-09-03T17:24:18Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > He already had a summoning spell memorized to summon a deva to guard the Gate (the original plan against Xykon). He just asked a different place for help when he cast it and summoned the devil. So, those spells are transferable, then? Neat. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7175 "2013-09-03T17:26:00Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > I’m assuming that Durkon’s got 7th level spells max. If he’s got the Trickery domain, he could use [Screen](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/screen.htm). But he’s quite likely to still have the Air domain in which case he can cast [Wind Wall](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/windWall.htm). Though he may have it anyway. You mean, he probably still has Air because he hasn’t prepared new spells yet? Or can he keep that domain despite being a vampire? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7176 "2013-09-03T17:34:22Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Not all Bards play the support role. Elan’s built as a light melee fighter with utility spells, but something like a Sublime Chord Ultimate Magus might out-mage the mage. Or he could have said “Screw it, I want full B.A.B., full arcane spellcasting and full divine spellcasting!” and become a Fochlucan Lyrist. He’d basically have to redo his build from almost scratch then, wouldn’t he? And although I’m not to familiar with the more obscure prestige classes, both those options seem a little, lets say hard core, for Elan. His earlier attempt to multiclass as an arcane spellcaster [did not go well.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) Maybe, going off of **Measure for Measure’s** comment #7169 above, Tarquin is genre savvy enough to know he won’t defeat Roy here, but he does want to shake Elan up a bit. I’ve been feeling that he’s a little nerfed as a character. He’s at least a 12th level bard, which could give him access to at least a few offensive spells, and decent melee combat abilities. Elans nerfitude may not be in his build but in himself. He can’t be a leader but he could be a more powerful bard. Maybe Tarquin is trying to force him to become one. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7177 "2013-09-03T17:50:47Z")
I don’t think if Roy has the leadership position in the OOTS because of his combat skills, but because of his ability to plan or improvise strategy. Also, Roy was the one who went around to recruit people to help him in his quest against Xykon (as told in “On the origin of PC’s”), making him the default boss & leader at the start. While the rest of the Order (except for Belkar) came to see the goal of stopping Xykon to be a worthy one, Roy seemed to be doing a decent enough job as Der Fuerer to leave him be. In game terms, a high enough self confidence (high CHA?) may be the key. While Elan has a high CHA, I think that’s all looks, and not self confidence. ---
**Author:** ![Unpronounceable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de0a6/32.png) [@Unpronounceable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unpronounceable)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7178 "2013-09-03T18:02:14Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Can psions cast Greater Dispel Magic? No - there’s an equivalent anti-psionic spell, but it wouldn’t normally have any effect on magic, unless the optional “psionics are magic” rule is in play. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7179 "2013-09-03T18:02:14Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Maybe, going off of **Measure for Measure’s** comment #7169 above, Tarquin is genre savvy enough to know he won’t defeat Roy here, but he does want to shake Elan up a bit. I’ve been feeling that he’s a little nerfed as a character. He’s at least a 12th level bard, which could give him access to at least a few offensive spells, and decent melee combat abilities. Elans nerfitude may not be in his build but in himself. He can’t be a leader but he could be a more powerful bard. Maybe Tarquin is trying to force him to become one. Well, Tarquin is on record as believing that bards do not exert nearly the power they are capable of. My first reaction to this strip was that he isn’t actually trying to kill Roy; instead, he’s setting up a dramatic moment for Elan to manipulate. > [@chorpler](#): > > So, those spells are transferable, then? Neat. I believe he just used [Summon Monster IX](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm), which allows you choose what you summon at the time of casting; a barbed devil is the Lawful Evil creature on the list for IX, but he could have summoned other things, like a gargantuan (think dragon-sized) fiendish scorpion. Technically, I think he could still summon celestial creatures with it, but it probably wouldn’t be a great idea. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7180 "2013-09-03T18:03:39Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > He’d basically have to redo his build from almost scratch then, wouldn’t he? And although I’m not to familiar with the more obscure prestige classes, both those options seem a little, lets say hard core, for Elan. His earlier attempt to multiclass as an arcane spellcaster [did not go well.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) I agree that Elan is not that Bard, I’m just pointing out that knowing Elan is “a Bard with a prestige class” doesn’t automatically mean Tarquin can write him off as just a force multiplier. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7181 "2013-09-03T18:17:20Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > He’d basically have to redo his build from almost scratch then, wouldn’t he? And although I’m not to familiar with the more obscure prestige classes, both those options seem a little, lets say hard core, for Elan. His earlier attempt to multiclass as an arcane spellcaster [did not go well.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0127.html) Oh glory, that’s a Magic 8-Ball on the end of Elanicalicus’ staff. How did I never see that it was a Magic 8-Ball before? :gigglesnort: “I am powerful and stuff!” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=358) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=360)