# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 360
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7182 "2013-09-03T18:30:25Z")
> [@Unpronounceable](#): > > No - there’s an equivalent anti-psionic spell, but it wouldn’t normally have any effect on magic, unless the optional “psionics are magic” rule is in play. If only Psteve was around. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7183 "2013-09-03T18:39:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Unpronounceable** : > > No - there’s an equivalent anti-psionic spell, but it wouldn’t normally have any effect on magic, unless the optional “psionics are magic” rule is in play. By default, it would work. It’s the “psionics are different” rule that’s optional, and officially not recommended. And the spell that Durkon used to get the fiend was Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Yes, it’s kind of unbalanced that you can call creatures more powerful than yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7184 "2013-09-03T18:47:09Z")
In one school of thought, the ability to summon creatures more powerful than you is the sine qua non of the spell’s very existence. While the ability to summon a creature less powerful than you are to assist you in a battle is obviously useful, the ability to summon _and control_ a more powerful being is what makes this a special class of spell. Discussion like this makes me want to organize a new campaign. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7185 "2013-09-03T19:10:49Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > [Redcloak mentioned to Xykon](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) that Tsukiko had a copy of the arcane half of the ritual, and asked Xykon if he knew anything about that. Note that Xykon hesitates a moment before answering “No”. > > That doesn’t fit the idea of Redcloak discovering/suspecting that Xykon planned to have Tsukiko take his place in the casting (Xykon would need the divine half for that, which he [doesn’t have and can’t obtain](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0829.html)), but it does lead Xykon to suspect that Tsukiko might have planned a coup (particularly embarrassing given that he’d apparently given Tsukiko access to the arcane half because he was too lazy to do his own homework). That served as a sufficient distraction from any questions about Redcloak’s plans. No, I think that this was much more of a confrontation, albeit one that was mostly unspoken. Redcloak and Xykon have a complex relationship that has evolved over the years. Certain unofficial rules have been enacted. Redcloak is allowed to complain about Xykon and pursue his own goals as long as they don’t interfere with Xykon’s but he cannot directly disobey Xykon. Xykon can give Redcloak orders and generally harass him but he cannot eliminate him. Enforcing these rules is the unspoken realization that a real fight between them would be dangerous - Xykon is more powerful but he knows Redcloak is stronger than he appears and is smarter while Redcloak knows Xykon isn’t as dumb as he often acts. And more importantly they’ve worked together for decades and they both knows that each must have been making plans for defeating the other - and can’t be certain the other’s plan won’t work. So the real conversation was Redcloak telling Xykon that he had gone too far by trying to have Tsukiko replace Redcloak and Xykon accepting that this had been a mistake. Redcloak meanwhile was letting Xykon know he had defied him by killing Tsukiko but didn’t openly say it. So they both acknowledged the other had crossed the lines but now they were both retreating back into the safe zone - and they implicitly agreed they were both going to pretend the incident hadn’t happened. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7186 "2013-09-03T19:10:49Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > If only Psteve was around. Hey, as a quick aside, why did Psteve get all burned and say he was suffering from, uh, what was it … “overchanneling damage,” I think? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7187 "2013-09-03T19:16:42Z")
What’s a Psteve? ---
**Author:** ![AndrewL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@AndrewL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndrewL)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7188 "2013-09-03T19:30:20Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I believe he just used [Summon Monster IX](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/summonMonsterIX.htm), which allows you choose what you summon at the time of casting; a barbed devil is the Lawful Evil creature on the list for IX, but he could have summoned other things, like a gargantuan (think dragon-sized) fiendish scorpion. Technically, I think he could still summon celestial creatures with it, but it probably wouldn’t be a great idea. The Summon Monster line of spells only summon a creature for 1 round/level. The Barbed Devil has been around for far too long for it to have been that. Durkon used the Planar Ally spell he had memorized from earlier, just summoning a devil instead of a deva due to his alignment change. ---
**Author:** ![Balance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@Balance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balance)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7189 "2013-09-03T19:34:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And the spell that Durkon used to get the fiend was Planar Ally, not Summon Monster. Yes, it’s kind of unbalanced that you can call creatures more powerful than yourself. Well, the tradeoff is supposed to be that you have to bargain with the prospective Planar Ally for a single specific service. With Summon Monster, the summoned creatures shows up and you can order it around for the duration. With live, Lawful Good Durkon summoning devas to help protect the Gate from the forces of Evil, I could see the summoned allies waiving the payment and agreeing to a broad service, but I doubt the barbed devil he ended up calling would be so accommodating. I was thinking in Summon Monster terms because there was no mention of a bargain, and the devil was accepting ongoing orders, but you’re right–Durkon isn’t high enough level for SM IX, which is what would be required. He must have bargained for a broad service agreement (like “Fight as ordered for X amount of time.”) off-panel. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7190 "2013-09-03T19:48:44Z")
> [@Balance](#): > > I could see the summoned allies waiving the payment and agreeing to a broad service, but I doubt the barbed devil he ended up calling would be so accommodating. Maybe not, but Durkon did mention the creature was [contracted to follow all his orders until midnight](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0909.html), so apparently there was a deal negotiated. Which sounds an awful lot like a temporary ally, not a summoned monster to me. Perhaps payment was already made or promised later. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7191 "2013-09-03T19:58:51Z")
On a mildly interesting note apropos of nothing, OOTS launched September 29, 2003. We’re about 4 weeks from the 10 year anniversary. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7192 "2013-09-03T21:40:44Z")
My first thought on the new strip was that it’s got to be about time for V to be released and will be the deus ex machina to temporarily shield the (almost said human pincushins, but that doesn’t work for oh so many reasons) _team_ down in the crater. Maybe in a Scottish voice of “Cap’t I’m givin her all she got but can’t hold it much longer.” And Roy taking a leap of faith and escaping into the snarl. I mean c’mon it looks so pretty and tranquil. All it needs is a few beach chairs and drinks with little umbrellas. Elan will scream Dad, those are my friends! Grab Haley by the hand and leap in after. OotS is intact and ready for a whole new book in a galaxy far far away. So now we know what will not happen… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7193 "2013-09-03T22:02:45Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Hey, as a quick aside, why did Psteve get all burned and say he was suffering from, uh, what was it … “overchanneling damage,” I think? Beats me. I barely know the regular rules of D&D. > [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > What’s a Psteve? He was a Poochie character that appeared in the _Dragon_ strips (which can be read in the _Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales_ collection). Psteve was Psion (who was “cool” and “edgy”) who appeared in a single strip but was portrayed as having been a regular member of the OOTS. He died in his first appearance and was never mentioned again. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7194 "2013-09-03T22:38:34Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > As I recall, and I’m at work with no reference materials handy, foes over a certain hit die or damage amount bypassed immunities (in a scaling sense, so 10HD might be equivalent of +1 weaponry, 12HD/+2 etc). The whole idea was so you couldn’t drop a mountain on a lemure and have a 1HD lemure sitting unscratched underneath a mountain. Or have a ghast kill a bullette in 1-on-1 arena combat because the bulette lacked magical claws and teeth. I lent my 1st Ed DMG to someone years ago and never got it back, but roughly speaking, a 4HD monster (e.g. an ogre) could hit creatures that otherwise needed +1 to hit, an 8HD monster counted as a +2 weapon, and it may have more or less gone up in increments. It never applied to PCs though - they had to find their magical plusses elsewhere. Similarly, a creature that took damage only from +1 or better weapons could hit another such regardless of hit dice (it may even have been that “silver or magic to hit” allowed a creature to hit a “magic to hit” creature). So yeah, a T Rex could chomp a vampire mightily - at least, until the automatic level drain weakened it too far (and, of course, a dinosaur had nothing that would permanently finish off a vamp). ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2013, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7195 "2013-09-03T23:55:16Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > So yeah, a T Rex could chomp a vampire mightily - at least, until the automatic level drain weakened it too far (and, of course, a dinosaur had nothing that would permanently finish off a vamp). Sure, vampires are kind of an outlier due to the special conditions needed to permanently kill one. The 1st ed. Monster Manual said that tyrannosaurs swallowed a man-sized opponent whole on an 18 or better. They don’t have rules for what happens after but, assuming the same rules apply as with other “one bite” monsters like purple worms, the swallowed victim is dead after six rounds. In a perfect world for the dinosaur, it could swallow a vampire whole in one round, digest it for six rounds and I’ll assume the “dead” vampire goes gaseous and makes an… ignoble… exit afterward. The vampire would be draining 2 levels/HD per round but the tyrannosaur has 18HD so it’ll survive the experience. Of course then you’ll have a farted out gaseous vampire and a permanently 6HD tyrannosaur. I guess the lesson here is that vampires and dinosaurs shouldn’t fight 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7196 "2013-09-04T00:24:01Z")
It seems a little silly to be arguing about which edition most realistically depicts a fight between a vampire and a tyrannosaurus. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7197 "2013-09-04T00:41:34Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems a little silly to be arguing about which edition most realistically depicts a fight between a vampire and a tyrannosaurus. After all, that’s valuable time we could spend talking about a vampire tyrannosaurus. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7198 "2013-09-04T01:07:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems a little silly to be arguing about which edition most realistically depicts a fight between a vampire and a tyrannosaurus. Awesome! I am dying here. Can I use this for a Sig? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7199 "2013-09-04T01:18:28Z")
And overchanneling, to put it simply, is a feat that psions can take that allows them to temporarily make themselves a bit more powerful, but at the cost of doing some damage to themselves and tiring them out. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7200 "2013-09-04T01:26:46Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > It seems a little silly to be arguing about which edition most realistically depicts a fight between a vampire and a tyrannosaurus. Spoken like a man with no vision. I, for one, have Syfy waiting for me on Line 2. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2013, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7201 "2013-09-04T01:40:38Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > Elan: "Dad. I hate to break this to you, but I’m as stupid as Nale was unwise. Luckily I’m wise enough to recognize that and secure myself solid allies. The only way the stupid guy can be leader is in a zany comedy (or worse a _romantic_ comedy) [QUOTE=Mr. Goob] My first thought on the new strip was that it’s got to be about time for V to be released and will be the deus ex machina to temporarily shield the (almost said human pincushins, but that doesn’t work for oh so many reasons) team down in the crater. Maybe in a Scottish voice of “Cap’t I’m givin her all she got but can’t hold it much longer.” [/QUOTE] Y’know, this actually has me picturing Captain Kirk as a savvy and charismatic adventurer who of course lets people like Spock and Scotty and McCoy handle the Int-based heavy lifting; sure, fearless leader takes point if the challenge du jour calls for diplomatically bluffing the opposition or talking a computer into killing itself or whatever – but otherwise he just assigns tasks to the brainy problem-solvers he outranks, in between smoothing over their interpersonal rivalries. It _almost_ works. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=359) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=361)