# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 394
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7862 "2013-11-05T15:58:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Belkar has a Wis of 7-10 which is only a -2 penalty at worst. Yes. And low-Will classes already have enough trouble making these saves without tacking a penalty on top - remember, a Ranger’s maximum save before ability scores is +6 at level 20. And +4 \*(\*make that +7 with the nigh-Standard issue Cloak of Resistance) \*really \*ain’t much when you’re facing an Epic level psion - psionics being broken as hell, they can raise the save DC of many of their spells even beyond the norm by overspending PPs. > [@](#): > > Inflict Pain doesn’t do any HP damage. Right, I meant (\>.\<) (as in, the visual effect of that psy surge on those who seem to have failed their saves the hardest, Roy and Haley. Who, coincidentally or not, also happen to be the ones with the worst Will saves in the party except for the Belkster. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7863 "2013-11-05T16:15:48Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Perhaps more to the point : pain for the Good characters, surprise for the Evil ones. (Yes, Durkon is technically a Good guy by character and morality, but as a vamp’ he’s Evil by his very nature. D&D can be dumb like that, don’t get me started). > So, possibly a psionic equivalent of [Unholy Blight](http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/unholyBlight.htm) ? I doubt Durkon is a good guy anymore by any definition, other than, “as compared to Xykon.” ---
**Author:** ![thinksnow](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thinksnow/32/2849_2.png) [@thinksnow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thinksnow)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7864 "2013-11-05T17:04:56Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Another factoid to throw in there on the psion’s attack. > {…} > V: no face shown > Elan: no face shown > > That can’t be an accident. Especially as V was located in such a position that he face would have been normally visible (see panel 4). So what would hurt a fighter and a rogue, surprise/dismay a ranger and a vampire, and have a giveaway effect if we saw what it did to an elf/wizard or a human bard. It’s not just “not shown,” they are clearly both shown either holding their heads or simply with their hands raised to their ears, and are the only two making that very specific gesture. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7865 "2013-11-05T17:21:48Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > That can’t be an accident. Especially as V was located in such a position that he face would have been normally visible (see panel 4). I don’t think that’s necessarily meaningful. Elan and V have their back turned to the camera because they have Tarquin’s group surrounded, and somebody needs to be in the foreground. Similarly, I think the reason those two appear to be grabbing their ears is a function of the fact that there’s only so many ways you can show someone in pain from behind, particularly given the level of detail available in Rich’s artistic style. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7866 "2013-11-05T19:02:10Z")
In the previous strip, Laurin had Roy “locked down”, whatever that means – unable to fight back. Could that be what Laurin is doing to the whole group now? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2013, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7867 "2013-11-05T19:08:44Z")
If whatever she did to Roy was something she could do to the whole Order at once, then she would have done it then. ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7868 "2013-11-06T06:12:13Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > The story has a certain lack of wise king candidates Hinjo? ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7869 "2013-11-06T12:17:56Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I doubt Durkon is a good guy anymore by any definition, other than, “as compared to Xykon.” Why not ? Now that he’s free from Malack’s control, he’s more or less the same stalwart and loyal dorf he always was, except with a slight case of heliophobia. OK, so he’s an abominable albeit sexay mockery of the holy cycle of life, but that’s beyond his control, innit ? I suppose he could get himself staked then rez’d but eh. More pressing matters, and besides the vampiric perks are pretty damn useful. And D&D vampires don’t need to drink blood to survive (it’s just a thing they do to spawn progeny and be dicks, essentially), so as long as he doesn’t do it outside of regular combat, that’s no hit on his alignment either. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7870 "2013-11-06T12:36:19Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why not ? Now that he’s free from Malack’s control, he’s more or less the same stalwart and loyal dorf he always was, except with a slight case of heliophobia. > OK, so he’s an abominable albeit sexay mockery of the holy cycle of life, but that’s beyond his control, innit ? I suppose he could get himself staked then rez’d but eh. More pressing matters, and besides the vampiric perks are pretty damn useful. And D&D vampires don’t need to drink blood to survive (it’s just a thing they do to spawn progeny and be dicks, essentially), so as long as he doesn’t do it outside of regular combat, that’s no hit on his alignment either. In D&D, evil isn’t an abstract philosophical idea to be debated: it’s part of the cosmology, something that physicists could study. Vampires are evil not because of what they do, but because of what they are. ---
**Author:** ![Stanislaus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stanislaus/32/3391_2.png) [@Stanislaus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stanislaus)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7871 "2013-11-06T15:10:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > If whatever she did to Roy was something she could do to the whole Order at once, then she would have done it then. Not necessarily - her and Tarquin’s goal was to assassinate Roy, not mix it up with the whole of OOTS. She immobilised him and lifted him up to Tarquin for a coup de grace. Had that worked she’d have opened another portal for her group to exit by, job done. As it happens, not immobilising everybody now looks like a tactical error - but of the sort you might make if you were complacent about your opponents and trying to rush through a job as a quick favour rather than giving it your full attention. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7872 "2013-11-06T15:19:46Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In D&D, evil isn’t an abstract philosophical idea to be debated: it’s part of the cosmology, something that physicists could study. Vampires are evil not because of what they do, but because of what they are. Ahem. [QUOTE=Kobal2] (Yes, Durkon is technically a Good guy by character and morality, but as a vamp’ he’s Evil by his very nature. D&D can be dumb like that, don’t get me started). [/QUOTE] But \*\*Miller \*\*seemed to be saying that Count Durkon was now Evil even aside from his current forced alignment change courtesy of simple undeadity, so I was curious. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7873 "2013-11-06T16:19:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Why not ? Now that he’s free from Malack’s control, he’s more or less the same stalwart and loyal dorf he always was, except with a slight case of heliophobia. Why did Lucy Westerna start eating children as soon as she became a vampire? Why did Jesse try to kill his best friend, Xander, when he was turned? Why did David and his friends spend all their time eating the citizens of Santa Carla? All Vampires Are Evil is the original vampire trope. There’re plenty of great stories that subvert this, but D&D generally plays it straight. OotS might be going a different route with it, but given that weve already seen that Durkon is channeling negative energy now (from his attempt to heal Roy) I rather doubt it. Apparently, being transformed into an unholy mockery of life that is literally powered by evil has some pretty profound effects on one’s conception of right and wrong. Besides which, if the only effect of Durkon’s death scene is that he gets a bunch of superpowers, that’s really going to murder the drama of that scene. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7874 "2013-11-06T16:22:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In D&D, evil isn’t an abstract philosophical idea to be debated… If that were true, then why are there endless debates about it? Of course it remains an abstract idea. > [@](#): > > it’s part of the cosmology, something that physicists could study. True as far as the cosmology goes, not necessarily true in a particular context with individuals, and certainly not necessarily true in the OOTS universe. Consider, for example, Roy’s being questioned and debriefed about his _actions_, when trying to enter the Lawful Good afterlife, and nearly being tossed into the “neutral” afterlife because of the grey nature of some of his decision making. If Roy is innately “good” because of merely who he is, then why the questioning about his actions? Why would it be any different for a vampire, as opposed to human, PC? > [@](#): > > Vampires are evil not because of what they do, but because of what they are. True as a group, true for NPCs, not necessarily true within individual PCs, especially in the OOTS universe. The creation of undead is unquestionably an evil act. The pressures and desires which drive sapient undead come unquestionably from an evil source. But what an independent sapient entity with freewill does under those pressures has to be up the individual. Was Drizzt Do’Urden evil because Drow are “always evil,” or good because, despite his upbringing and social conditioning, his actions were good in the world? ETA: My prediction is that, despite all I wrote above, Durkon is now Evil, but that it will come out in unexpected ways. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7875 "2013-11-06T16:26:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > But \*\*Miller \*\*seemed to be saying that Count Durkon was now Evil even aside from his current forced alignment change courtesy of simple undeadity, so I was curious. I’m not really sure what you mean by this. What sort of evil is there outside of the alignment change? If you’re referring to the fact that Durkon has not yet committed any evil acts, sure, but that’s mostly down to a lack of opportunity thus far. Alignment isn’t meant to track your past actions, but to indicate your reaction to future events. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7876 "2013-11-06T16:29:45Z")
Also, word of god is that Durkon is Lawful Evil, and his lawfulness will motivate him to demonstrate loyalty to his group. This could mask evil intent for some time. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7877 "2013-11-06T16:42:49Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’m not really sure what you mean by this. What sort of evil is there outside of the alignment change? If you’re referring to the fact that Durkon has not yet committed any evil acts, sure, but that’s mostly down to a lack of opportunity thus far. Alignment isn’t meant to track your past actions, but to indicate your reaction to future events. Well, there was Nale’s offer to help him slaughter his old teammates and make some new thralls out of them, which he rejected. I guess we’ll see how things progress. However, there are definitely more abstract considerations of good and evil in OOTS, at least. I mean, for one thing, I’d rather have Belkar as a teammate than Miko, even though he’s Evil and she was Good. Belkar would perhaps feel some team loyalty, like he did when Roy wanted to abandon Elan back in [Wooden Forest](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html). Whereas Miko might decide I’m not holy enough and slay me at any time. Heck, she sliced me up with her katanas just for continuing to read a freakin’ book! ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7878 "2013-11-06T17:01:11Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Was Drizzt Do’Urden evil because Drow are “always evil,” or good because, despite his upbringing and social conditioning, his actions were good in the world? Drow _aren’t_ “always evil”, they are “usually evil”. They are not creatures fuelled by anti-life like the Undead, or the anthropomorphic personifications of Evil like Outsiders. They are people. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7879 "2013-11-06T17:05:14Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > If that were true, then why are there endless debates about it? Of course it remains an abstract idea. The thing in D&D is that abstract ideas can also be people. “Marital infidelity” is an abstract idea. It’s also literally who Sabine is - she is, as she puts it, a physical embodiment of illicit sex. > [@](#): > > True as far as the cosmology goes, not necessarily true in a particular context with individuals, and certainly not necessarily true in the OOTS universe. Consider, for example, Roy’s being questioned and debriefed about his _actions_, when trying to enter the Lawful Good afterlife, and nearly being tossed into the “neutral” afterlife because of the grey nature of some of his decision making. > > If Roy is innately “good” because of merely who he is, then why the questioning about his actions? The difference between Roy and Durkon is that Roy is a mortal. Mortals, for the most part, aren’t innately anything. Demons, angels, and undead, among other things, don’t necessarily work that way. (Also, I kind of think Roy’s interview was mostly a formality. He’s going to the \*Lawful \*Good afterlife. _Of course_ there’s an interview to get in.) > [@](#): > > True as a group, true for NPCs, not necessarily true within individual PCs, especially in the OOTS universe. The creation of undead is unquestionably an evil act. The pressures and desires which drive sapient undead come unquestionably from an evil source. But what an independent sapient entity with freewill does under those pressures has to be up the individual. That presumes that Durkon has free will. (Well, it presumes that anyone has free will, but let’s not go there.) Sure, he’s not under Malack’s control anymore, but his body is still suffused with literal, non-abstract evil, and that’s corrupted him on an essential, moral level. > [@](#): > > Was Drizzt Do’Urden evil because Drow are “always evil,” or good because, despite his upbringing and social conditioning, his actions were good in the world? That’s the thing about alignment in D&D. “Evil” can mean the jerk in the office who loves to make things miserable for his co-workers. It can be the professional criminal who once killed a security guard while robbing a bank. It can be the serial killer stitching together a skin suit in his basement. Or it can be Satan himself. In the context of the Forgotten Realms, the drow aren’t innately evil, but are the product of a brutal and vicious culture that ruthlessly programs them to be utterly evil, and is so efficient at it that virtually no one can survive it without becoming utterly depraved. But also in the context of the Forgotten Realms are demons, who are literally _made out of evil_. So “always evil” as a stat block entry has some elasticity to it. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7880 "2013-11-06T17:08:40Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Drow _aren’t_ “always evil”, they are “usually evil”. They are not creatures fuelled by anti-life like the Undead, or the anthropomorphic personifications of Evil like Outsiders. They are people. Originally, in the first edition, Drow were always Chaotic Evil. I know it’s been updated in later editions following the creation of Drizz’t. Making a vampire a PC changes everything in my opinion about their typical “always Chaotic Evil” status. Unless you want to deny your PC a choice in the character’s actions, that is, which is hardly fun. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 6, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/7881 "2013-11-06T17:10:31Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Well, there was Nale’s offer to help him slaughter his old teammates and make some new thralls out of them, which he rejected. I guess we’ll see how things progress. Turning down an offer of help from Nale doesn’t necessarily mean Durkon’s alignment has changed, it just means that his Wisdom score hasn’t changed. > [@](#): > > However, there are definitely more abstract considerations of good and evil in OOTS, at least. I mean, for one thing, I’d rather have Belkar as a teammate than Miko, even though he’s Evil and she was Good. Belkar would perhaps feel some team loyalty, like he did when Roy wanted to abandon Elan back in [Wooden Forest](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0153.html). Whereas Miko might decide I’m not holy enough and slay me at any time. Heck, she sliced me up with her katanas just for continuing to read a freakin’ book! Yeah, if you read through some of the gaming articles Burlew has written on his website, he talks a lot about the difference between being good, and being likable. Miko was Lawful Good, but I suspect she had the charisma score of roadkill. She was unpleasant to be around. Tarquin has charisma out the wazoo, and he’s basically Hitler with dinosaurs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=393) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=395)