# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 401
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8002 "2013-11-14T14:24:59Z")
Almost a 100 strips ago. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8003 "2013-11-14T14:27:47Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > When did Elan send his message? Off-panel, between Durkon’s return in #[836](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0836.html) and the start of #[837](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8004 "2013-11-14T14:31:03Z")
> [@Hypno-Toad](#): > > When did Elan send his message? The hypothesis I’ve read is that Elan had Durkon Send it just before the 1st panel of [#837.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) Why Elan needed Durkon to do it, and not just [rely on a stack of Sending scrolls](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html), I dunno. Good thing Julio’s skyship was within a day or so’s flight of Girard’s Gate, eh? Mumble, mumble, Probability servicing Drama like a harlot, mumble. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8005 "2013-11-14T14:39:31Z")
> [@Garula](#): > > He knows his death has to be the most likely outcome of this conflict, probably going down to buy time for everyone else to get to safety. Julio’s prediction was: “the most likely scenario is that I’d return only to be randomly killed by an enemy of yours so that you can cradle my dying body while swearing revenge.” This isn’t that scenario. If he dies here, it certainly won’t be random (unless it’s a _really_ cheesy death like getting stabbed in the back by a minion after defeating Tarquin). This is the Dashing Swordsman showing up as the agent of his own epic entrance. I don’t think it necessarily follows that he has to die here. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8006 "2013-11-14T14:40:08Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > The hypothesis I’ve read is that Elan had Durkon Send it just before the 1st panel of [#837.](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html) Why Elan needed Durkon to do it, and not just [rely on a stack of Sending scrolls](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html), I dunno. Scrolls cost money. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8007 "2013-11-14T14:41:24Z")
Besides, ask yourself : “Do I want to entrust Elan with the party’s finances or otherwise consumable assets like scrolls, yes/no ?” 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8008 "2013-11-14T14:50:06Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Scrolls cost money. Also, not a lot of scroll merchants in the middle of the desert. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8009 "2013-11-14T14:53:23Z")
It should be noted, by the way, that Julio is _not_, despite Elan’s plan, a “good father figure”. He’s chaotic neutral, not good. Of course, chaotic neutral still really doesn’t get along with lawful evil at all, so that’s probably close enough. Though I wonder if it might still backfire somehow. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8010 "2013-11-14T14:55:42Z")
> [@Wolverine](#): > > [In #837](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html), Elan and Durkon return from somewhere doing something. Seems like forever ago. Which is a problem. Tarquin thinks he’s the Order’s nemesis, but Rich seems to have forgotten that he is supposed to be wrong about that. Team Evil has had, what, five pages in the past year and a half? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8011 "2013-11-14T15:09:31Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Which is a problem. Tarquin thinks he’s the Order’s nemesis, but Rich seems to have forgotten that he is supposed to be wrong about that. Team Evil has had, what, five pages in the past year and a half? Sure, but that year and a half in our time was a day or two of in-comic time. I think we’re going on 16 months that it’s been “today”. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8012 "2013-11-14T15:17:45Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > Sure, but that year and a half in our time was a day or two of in-comic time. I think we’re going on 16 months that it’s been “today”. I used to think _Judge Parker_ storylines were slow… ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8013 "2013-11-14T15:27:43Z")
I just went back and looked, and [#834](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) appears to be the first strip of this in-comic day. It was posted on 13-Feb-2012. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8014 "2013-11-14T16:18:07Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > It should be noted, by the way, that Julio is _not_, despite Elan’s plan, a “good father figure”. He’s chaotic neutral, not good. > > Of course, chaotic neutral still really doesn’t get along with lawful evil at all, so that’s probably close enough. Though I wonder if it might still backfire somehow. Well, Julio is a hell of a lot closer to Good than Tarquin will ever be. And I really doubt that Julio would ever calculate whether or not Elan would survive a stab wound if J had an opportunity to kill an opponent, and J probably would not kill his own son. So of the two, Julio is a much better father figure than Tarquin. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8015 "2013-11-14T16:40:57Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Well, Julio is a hell of a lot closer to Good than Tarquin will ever be. And I really doubt that Julio would ever calculate whether or not Elan would survive a stab wound if J had an opportunity to kill an opponent, and J probably would not kill his own son. So of the two, Julio is a much better father figure than Tarquin. Julio only looks good by comparison. Sure, Tarquin massacres his enemies, throws away the lives of his soldiers, runs a dictatorship, killed one son and stabbed the other. But Julio is an admitted thief and robber, plus he’s a deadbeat dad, plus he killed innocent soldiers in Azure City (as well as destroying city defenses). I mean, sure, for a Bard that isn’t going to be too concerned with Law and more concerned with plot and drama, Julio is perfect. But for your average character? Julio is a scoundrel, and not the good kind. ---
**Author:** ![Wargamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Wargamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wargamer)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8016 "2013-11-14T16:50:08Z")
Am I the only person who has missed that Tarquin = Tarkin? I am such a fighter goober when it comes to dramatic hints… ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8017 "2013-11-14T16:54:27Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > But Julio is an admitted thief and robber, plus he’s a deadbeat dad, plus he killed innocent soldiers in Azure City (as well as destroying city defenses). Well, he’s neutral so obvious his record isn’t clean. But I read “good family” as family who was good for/to Elan, not strictly Alignment Good. Julio did more good for Elan in a few days without looking for payment than Tarquin probably had in his entire life – given that Tarquin’s “gifts” were either to further his own ambitions or grossly horrible (like setting fire to numerous civilians just for kicks). To grab from the party, V is Neutral and has done terrible things but has been more selflessly “good” to Elan than Elan’s father or brother. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8018 "2013-11-14T17:05:56Z")
Oh, I’m not arguing that Julio is Good with a capital G. He’s just a lot more good for both the party and for Elan than Tarquin is. Tarquin is, after all, trying to kill off most of the party, even though they are Elan’s friends (OK, except for Belkar). ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8019 "2013-11-14T17:37:21Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Tarquin is, after all, trying to kill off most of the party, even though they are Elan’s friends (OK, except for Belkar). I would argue that Tarquin is trying to kill off most of the party BECAUSE they’re Elan’s friends, or at least because they’re not his followers. Tarquin is looking to give Elan sole billing because it’s the way HE thinks a dramatic hero should shine. What he’s been in denial about for most of this book is that Elan is not a dramatic hero. He’s a supporting character, and he LIKES it that way. So Tarquin imagines that the rest of the Order is holding Elan back, rather than realizing that Elan genuinely wants to be a supporting player rather than the star. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8020 "2013-11-14T17:45:19Z")
> [@Wargamer](#): > > Am I the only person who has missed that Tarquin = Tarkin? You didn’t miss anything. See the [Word Of Giant](http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9527191#post9527191). ---
**Author:** ![oft\_wears\_hats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7993a0/32.png) [@oft\_wears\_hats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/oft_wears_hats)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8021 "2013-11-14T17:45:49Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would argue that Tarquin is trying to kill off most of the party BECAUSE they’re Elan’s friends, or at least because they’re not his followers. Tarquin is looking to give Elan sole billing because it’s the way HE thinks a dramatic hero should shine. What he’s been in denial about for most of this book is that Elan is not a dramatic hero. He’s a supporting character, and he LIKES it that way. So Tarquin imagines that the rest of the Order is holding Elan back, rather than realizing that Elan genuinely wants to be a supporting player rather than the star. As has been discussed to death, the joke really is on Tarquin: while he fancies himself the big bad, his whole family is nothing but supporting characters. Elan wants to be a supporting character, and Tarquin and Nale are nothing but support characters, while they each fancied themselves as the big bad. It’s nicely poetic in how Tarquin thinks that Elan is resisting his true role as the hero, when in actuality it’s Tarquin who is resisting _his_ true role as a mere supporting villain. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=400) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=402)