# Order of the Stick - Book 5 Discussion Thread **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [August 31, 2009, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323 "2009-08-31T04:09:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 402
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8022 "2013-11-14T18:00:59Z")
> [@Wargamer](#): > > Am I the only person who has missed that Tarquin = Tarkin? > > I am such a fighter goober when it comes to dramatic hints… No, Tarquin = [Tarquin](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Tarquinius_Superbus). There’s even an evil son. ---
**Author:** ![wolfman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/a8b319/32.png) [@wolfman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfman)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8023 "2013-11-14T20:41:23Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Well, Julio is a hell of a lot closer to Good than Tarquin will ever be. And I really doubt that Julio would ever calculate whether or not Elan would survive a stab wound if J had an opportunity to kill an opponent, and J probably would not kill his own son. So of the two, Julio is a much better father figure than Tarquin. And The Tarquin/Julio dynamic isn’t so much on the Good vs evil axis, as they are Mortally opposed on the law/Chaos axis. More of a _Smokey and the Bandit_ thing than _Gandalf vs the Balrog_. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8024 "2013-11-14T21:14:00Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Good thing Julio’s skyship was within a day or so’s flight of Girard’s Gate, eh? Mumble, mumble, Probability servicing Drama like a harlot, mumble. Hey, arriving at the right time and place for the dramatic Scene is a literal class feature of Dashing Swordsmen. It’s a _power_, kind of like the Force. As demonstrated [here](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) in panels 18+. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8025 "2013-11-14T22:08:57Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > Good thing Julio’s skyship was within a day or so’s flight of Girard’s Gate, eh? Mumble, mumble, Probability servicing Drama like a harlot, mumble. Yeah, those have got to be million to one odds right there! ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8026 "2013-11-14T22:54:47Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > But Julio is an admitted thief and robber, plus he’s a deadbeat dad, plus he killed innocent soldiers in Azure City (as well as destroying city defenses). Guilty on the thieving and robbing charges, as well damaging some of the city defenses which left the city more vulnerable to the goblin attack, but it does not appear than the [his alchemist’s fire attack](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) killed any soldiers. Also, they were attacking him with deadly force, so “innocent” is a stretch. ---
**Author:** ![appleciders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85f322/32.png) [@appleciders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/appleciders)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2013, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8027 "2013-11-14T23:53:03Z")
It blows my mind that Julio Scoundrel is one of the more memorable supporting characters in this whole comic strip, but this is only the fifth comic he’s appeared it. He’s quite well written. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8028 "2013-11-15T00:29:50Z")
And, really, Elan’s girlfriend and love of his life is an admitted thief and robber so drawing the line at his surrogate father is closing the barn doors a little too late. ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8029 "2013-11-15T13:24:01Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Guilty on the thieving and robbing charges, as well damaging some of the city defenses which left the city more vulnerable to the goblin attack, but it does not appear than the [his alchemist’s fire attack](http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0392.html) killed any soldiers. Also, they were attacking him with deadly force, so “innocent” is a stretch. I’ll grant the soldier’s didn’t actually die (so, I’ll reduce that to attempted murder :D) . But as far as the soldiers attacking him, I’m pretty sure it’s illegal to kill a cop even if the cop it’s trying to apprehend you - EVEN if the LEO is using deadly force to do so. Although, as **Jophiel** mentions, Elan doesn’t seem to think “non-criminal” is a point in someone’s favor when considering the appropriateness of a relationship with them. Although he does see that theft is bad, given his IOUs for stuff when breaking out of jail. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8030 "2013-11-15T13:37:58Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > I’ll grant the soldier’s didn’t actually die (so, I’ll reduce that to attempted murder :D) . It wasn’t attempted murder either - he bombed the siege engines, not the crew. Besides, alchemist’s fire doesn’t do enough damage to kill a commoner, let alone a soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8031 "2013-11-15T13:57:15Z")
> [@yellowjacketcoder](#): > > Although he does see that theft is bad, given his IOUs for stuff when breaking out of jail. On the other hand, he’s planning on stealing a diet coke when he meets Julio which is a pretty casual attitude to take towards property rights. I suppose, in a world where you have classes and levels, there’s a certain “legitimacy” to a capital-T Thief stealing things even if you’re not happy if they steal your stuff. It’s just part of the package with useful adventuring skills like picking locks, disarming traps, climbing walls, sneak attacks, etc. I don’t know how modern editions run it but bards started as a sort of thief subclass (you started a thief before choosing to become a bard) so none of this would be really shocking to Elan or unusual for a bard like Julio. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8032 "2013-11-15T14:37:00Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > What he’s been in denial about for most of this book is that Elan is not a dramatic hero. He’s a supporting character You’d think his being a Bard would be a bit of a hint 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8033 "2013-11-15T14:41:52Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I don’t know how modern editions run it but bards started as a sort of thief subclass (you started a thief before choosing to become a bard) so none of this would be really shocking to Elan or unusual for a bard like Julio. Bards are their own class now, but tellingly enough they can’t be lawful. Or, well, they can \*become \*lawful (and won’t lose the power of Rock the way a Paladin would) but then they can’t gain Bard levels any more long as they are. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8034 "2013-11-15T14:46:59Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I would argue that Tarquin is trying to kill off most of the party BECAUSE they’re Elan’s friends, or at least because they’re not his followers. Tarquin is looking to give Elan sole billing because it’s the way HE thinks a dramatic hero should shine. What he’s been in denial about for most of this book is that Elan is not a dramatic hero. He’s a supporting character, and he LIKES it that way. So Tarquin imagines that the rest of the Order is holding Elan back, rather than realizing that Elan genuinely wants to be a supporting player rather than the star. Somebody needs to give Tarquin a copy of _Don’t Split the Party_ so he can read what happens to the group when Roy’s not around. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8035 "2013-11-15T14:59:11Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You’d think his being a Bard would be a bit of a hint 😛 A hint that, with their mastery of narrative structure, they should be ruling the entire cosmos by now? ---
**Author:** ![squeegee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/squeegee/32/14537_2.png) [@squeegee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/squeegee)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8036 "2013-11-15T17:54:11Z")
So is this [page](http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman) describing the Dashing Swordsman prestige class characteristics considered OOTS canon, or just something some fanboy made up (or perhaps both!) ? ---
**Author:** ![yellowjacketcoder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4bbf92/32.png) [@yellowjacketcoder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yellowjacketcoder)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2013, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8037 "2013-11-15T18:06:51Z")
> [@squeegee](#): > > So is this [page](http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Dashing_Swordsman) describing the Dashing Swordsman prestige class characteristics considered OOTS canon, or just something some fanboy made up (or perhaps both!) ? Just fanboy wanking, unfortunately. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Goob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c77e96/32.png) [@Mr.Goob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Goob)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8038 "2013-11-16T13:36:30Z")
With a surprise twist like this that almost all of us missed seeing, I’m really looking forward to about 3 or 4 days in strip time, which will be what, the year 2021 our time:D for the reveal of _The Monster in the Dark_. Rich will have to really flabbergast us. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8039 "2013-11-16T17:11:32Z")
As the classic Golden Girls joke went: > [@](#): > > Dorothy: Wow, I haven’t read _Apartment 3-G_ in twenty years. > Blanche: Oh, well let me catch you up! It is later that same day… ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8040 "2013-11-16T21:24:30Z")
> [@Mr.Goob](#): > > With a surprise twist like this that almost all of us missed seeing, I’m really looking forward to about 3 or 4 days in strip time, which will be what, the year 2021 our time:D for the reveal of _The Monster in the Dark_. Rich will have to really flabbergast us. The MITD turns out to be the Snail. Remember, you heard it here first. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2013, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323/8041 "2013-11-16T21:42:57Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > As the classic Golden Girls joke went: This does seem to be the longest “day” in terms of number of strips: Current day: 835-930 (and ongoing) 600-671 - The day Vaarsuvius did the Soul Splice and Roy was resurrected. 418-492 - The day Azure City was conquered and Roy died. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=401) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/order-of-the-stick-book-5-discussion-thread/508323.md?page=403)